Desert Island Tricks
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Desert Island Tricks
Derren Brown | Part One
We've got an extraordinary episode featuring the wonderful Derren Brown, who takes us through his incredible career, from the early days of close up card magic to his rise as a world-renowned mentalist and hypnotist. Listen as Derren shares his ultimate list of effects from his career including effects from his stage, television, book's and DVD's. He also recounts touching moments, like an audience member's request to contact her deceased grandmother, and reflects on the ethical dilemmas his craft often presents.
Join us for an imaginative exploration into Derren's thought process as he selects timeless tricks over modern, tech-heavy illusions. Learn why classics like "Card at Any Number" holds a special place in his repertoire and how his interest in card magic has been rekindled. He reveals the artistry behind his magic, emphasising the importance of engaging the audience from the very beginning and creating an emotional connection through seemingly bizarre situations that are sure to leave a lasting impression.
Discover the intricacies of live performances as Derren discusses the unique challenges of mentalism and hypnosis. Hear stories from his tours, where he's had to be both present and compassionate, particularly when dealing with individuals experiencing panic attacks or PTSD. From transforming a discarded card trick into a compelling mediumship act to the ingenious mechanics of "Watch to Sock," Derren provides a fascinating behind-the-scenes look at the world of magic. This episode is a must-listen for anyone intrigued by the delicate balance between creating impactful entertainment and being mindful of audience sensitivities.
A podcast about being an artist from a practical perspective. The series will...
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Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk
So we started getting like angry letters about it.
Speaker 1:Not a regular thing, but certainly enough to kind of really pay attention to, to the extent that I then had to change the trick and put in don't take part in this, close your eyes now if you suffer from any form of PTSD. So there we were with a card trick that was causing proper distress to some people, not just being angry, but like you know people, but people shaking in tears, sobbing, just really weird situations that kind of came out of it. So that was fascinating, because I've often had moments like that when I've toured Ladies and gentlemen, the incredible Darren Brown, darren Brown, everybody.
Speaker 1:And our beliefs and our understandings about the world are limited by that perspective, which means we tell ourselves stories. It's yeah, it stayed with me this because I think theatrically it was interesting because, as you say, I'm saying I'm making this up, I'm making this up, this is rubbish. So I've got your aunt here her name is Jan, is that right, auntie Jan? And they'll be like, yes, and she's saying she's not saying anything. Of course I'm lying to you, but she's saying blah, blah, blah, and it would go back and forth like that and it just kind of occupied this space.
Speaker 1:I think we get rather caught up, particularly as mentalists between you know, are you saying it's real or it's not, are you this or this? Like it's a very binary thing and I don't think ultimately your responsibility is to that particular ethical question. I think your responsibility is a theatrical one and actually, really early on in the tour I came out at Stage Door and there was a girl there. She said, oh, I wonder if you could put me in touch with my grandmother who's passed away. I said, oh God. I said I'm so sorry. I really hoped it's clear from the show that I can't really do any of that stuff and she said oh no, no. No, I know you can't do any of that stuff, but I just wondered if you could put me in touch with her, which was such interesting thing for someone to say.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to another episode of Desert Island Tricks. We are really in for a treat today. It's somebody that I mean again. You guys have seen the title at this point and you'll notice that this is the first videoed one that we have done. We may do more video ones in the future, but today's guest is I really can't introduce him, so all I can tell you is my, my thoughts about this person, because I think that's just the nicest way to go.
Speaker 2:Um, so this particular person that we have on today was someone who's actually from my home area. So when I was 11 and 12 and I was, I come from croydon originally. Don't judge me everyone. Um, so I'm from croydon originally, don't judge me everyone. So I'm from Croydon originally.
Speaker 2:I remember being in year it must have been year seven, year eight and seeing all of the bus stops with this guy who's going to do this Russian roulette thing, and I remember very young watching this Russian roulette thing live and being absolutely on the edge of my seat. Probably shouldn't have been watching it that young, let's all be honest. But I'm glad that I did, because from that day forward I was a huge fan of today's guest, so much so I think I've seen pretty much all of the live shows. I've tried to collect as much growing up, seeing his international lecture, which was just superb. And, yeah, I think that my story is probably very similar to lots of people listening to this podcast and watching this podcast. I think the impact that he's had on our industry and on a lot of people as individuals is probably more profound than he would like to think. So, with that being said, that's my introduction, but today's guest is the wonderful Mr Darren Brown. Lovely to have you, darren.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. That was very nice. I really like how you said that you come from Croydon originally. Everyone puts the originally on the end of Croydon, like they want to distance themselves from it. I don't live there anymore. I was there for a moment in my youth. It has blossomed into non-entity since I was last there. But I'm really fond of Croydon and Purley where I actually kind of was, you know, actually living just on the outskirts.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm really interested to see what you're going to say, as I'm sure most listeners here, because obviously your roots coming into our industry wasn't necessarily mentalism per se. Uh, you were at one point known for your card magic, in particular smoke um, which was just fantastic. But uh, you sort of then went on to some more of the mentalism and the hypnosis and that's what you sort of become known for. So I'm not sure I think there's going to be some card, some card stuff on there.
Speaker 1:There is actually. This is a really interesting thing to think about. First of all because I mean the brief I had that these are tricks for the desert island. Because I mean the brief I had that these are tricks for the desert island. I mean, I understand if it's records to listen to, records I'm an old man, music to listen to.
Speaker 1:But I did think how I mean you must have had this conversation with a number of your guests but how, who am I performing? You know, this is I'm on a desert island there's. I'm just presumably just doing these for myself and there's no one actually experiencing any magic, although that hasn't stopped me in the past, I have to say, probably fairly standard, um, but uh, and then I read further down the brief and um, uh, it said no, these are tricks that you, you, it's not so much about performing them on the island, it's that you can only perform these tricks for the rest of your career. And that made more sense. That was actually really a really interesting thing to ponder.
Speaker 1:And then you made me feel really bad just before we started talking, because you said that Preston Nyman, who's one of the best people in the world, uh, had chosen some tenure tricks. A, of course that's genius and brilliant as he is. And B, of course I thought, all right, you're not really supposed to choose your own tricks. Uh, how, how much you know more generous and how much nicer to um. Not choose your own tricks, apart from one, because I took that to mean you can only perform you know from your repertoire for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, forgive me, apart from one, these are all from my own repertoire, but I'm not very. It's been a long time since I kind of know what's you know come out or what is sort of current in the magic scene. So it's perhaps no surprise that most of the things I remember, you know, involve producing more records and tips and uh and um, you know old, old tricks. So, yeah, I'm kind of a bit out of, and also so much mentalism has just turned to electronics and stuff which is, I'm sure, lots of fun if you're, you know, doing occasional close-up gigs, but if you're touring a live show, you can't be doing any of that stuff. So I am a bit out of sync with what's in at the moment. So, yeah, it's all my own stuff, sorry.
Speaker 2:Well, that's even more interesting, though, because I'm sure a lot of our listeners will know a lot of your items, so we can play a new game that normally we can't play, which is at this point. What do you think from deron's material if you're listening to this, which you are, because that's what this is um, what tricks do you think deron would put in there? I definitely think give, give no confirmations here. I think smoke has to be in there, because I think it created such a massive buzz when it came about, and one of our episodes, one of our guests, has a version of smoke that he released as an effect, and he would take that on his desert island with him. So it's still relevant.
Speaker 1:Well, I can tell you some smoke is not on the list because I was thinking, I was thinking very practically about this and who smokes nowadays? And when I when I did that trick for Andrew O'Connor and Michael Vine, who ran Objective and signed me up for the first TV show and then they ended up giving me the gig I did that trick in in Joe Allen's in a restaurant in London and just sort of lit up at the table and weren't even sat in the smoking section. And that feels just such an age ago that although I did think of having it on the list once, I understood the brief correctly and then I thought, well, no, I'd never, I'd never be able to do it. So it would be a waste if I don't do eight trips the rest of my career, Having one that relies on smoking would be a bad move. So no, I'm afraid it isn't on the list, but it nearly was.
Speaker 2:Oh well, all of the people at home playing Derren Bingo. You've just got that one wrong, along with me. They assumed so. With that being said, if this is the first time that you are listening to this today, we are going to whisk darren away to last and the last. Potentially, we're going to whisk darren away to his own desert island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks with him. One book my own island, like david copperfield your whole island.
Speaker 1:I hope you won't mind me saying this, but I um, uh knew somebody who went to david's island and uh said that they were sort of in the car with him doing a little bit of that sort of journey, I guess, from the Plainlands to David's house, and so it was really interesting because basically he was on the phone having to deal with all the difficult practical stuff that comes up because something's flooded and the electrics have gone. And it was a real like lesson in no matter how stratospheric you are and you can have your own island. Lesson in no matter how stratospheric you are and you can have your own island. Ultimately we're all dealing with the sort of the ordinary, boring, annoying, daily stuff. I found it very, uh, I found that very comforting tale. Anyway, sorry, back to your private island.
Speaker 2:So when deron's there, he can take eight tricks, one book, one non-magic item that he uses for magic particulars. Who's there? How big is it? What's there? Are there animals there? Are there's there. How big is it? What's there? Are there animals there? Are there people there? All of that is in Darren's own imagination. We do not mind. The most important thing is, these are the collection of tricks that Darren could not live without, if that's all he could perform for forever. So, with that being said, let's hop on your rubber dinghy and go to your desert island. So what did you put in your first position?
Speaker 1:Well, it was going to be Copperfield's plane vanish and I'll tell you why, because you probably haven't had that. I just figured again this is before. I kind of read the entire email and just thought hang on, I've got to think again. I need to get off this island. So okay, make the plane vanish, great. But I can only presume that if they'd have brought the plane to the island for the trick, they're going to fly home in the plane as well. So I figured it wouldn't be too hard to get on that plane and leave the island. So that was going to be my first choice. Then I realized that wasn't the point. It wasn't like a puzzle room to escape the island. Then I realized that wasn't the point. It wasn't like a puzzle room to escape the island.
Speaker 1:I did a puzzle room not that long ago in London and it just so happened we got divided up into teams and everybody in my team was gay, which just sort of happened like that, and we realized this halfway through through and then the joke was that we didn't escape, but we did. We decorate the place very nicely. There was a quiche in the oven, that was true. But the second choice then, after I disregarded that is, this is the one that isn't my trick and it's a card at any number. And the reason why I've chosen this one it's not so much that I don't quite understand the sort of the Holy Grail aspect of it not really and I haven't really performed it that much. But when I stopped doing Not really and I haven't really performed it that much but when I stopped doing card magic, after I released Devil's Picture Book, which is a DVD that's out there somewhere and I no longer a DVD, which again I'm showing my age A streaming thing Not streaming Doesn't matter, download I kind of of that was sort of it I didn't really do any card stuff. I just haven't for years.
Speaker 1:And then the um and this was actually going to be my book choice I I got hold of david burglars's the burglars effects book, which is about card any number, and uh, it was the only magic book I'd read in a long time. It's the only one I've really have read in a long time and since what I love about it and the reason it was the my only connection with card magic over the years, really since stopping um and I is that it it is all about the participant or the spectator. I don't like the word spectator, it suggests they're a kind of passive, they're just watching something happening and sort of observing, which is sadly so much of what passes as magic. But they are from the get-go. It's about their choices and their thoughts and their decisions and so on. And so much of card magic like 98% of it might involve you picking a card, but then you're very quickly into just watching the magician do stuff. You know I take this and look and put it in.
Speaker 1:There've sort of lost a bit of contact with card magic and I've sort of stopped. I've sort of fallen out of love with it a bit. I'm, but a lot of magicians show me tricks. Uh, it really struck me how I'm I'm, it immediately loses me within. I'm probably more sensitive, sensitive to it than most people. Maybe just aren't that interested in card magic. I don't really think about it, but it immediately loses me, whereas a trick that begins with asking me to think about something, asking me to make a decision or what my favorite card is or whatever, immediately just feels more interesting to me. I feel sort of, you know, engaged. So, um, and it also appeals to me because, like I think, a lot of the best magic magic. You might have to improvise your way through it and you know, you've got a kind of a framework and then you can sort of kind of play and take it to other places.
Speaker 1:So I, for a while I did it just sort of you know, privately I suppose, and I never. I kind of I didn't do it enough to really forever properly feeling ingrained and I forgot the memory system and um which is ironic, isn't it? Um, uh, so I kind of left it. But for the short amount of time that I was doing it, it really felt like a uh, a really wondrous thing. And I remember sitting with a guy I was on tour with and we sat at the bar and he said I've never asked you to show me a trick, would you show me a trick? So I got out the deck of cards and just did it and it sort of it was a bit of a golden sweet spot. He just kept making a card and they kept cutting to it, or it felt like again and again I could just do this sort of impossible thing. And it was lovely and I know it left him with a really strong impression because I've spoken with him since. So yeah, so that's my first choice.
Speaker 1:I think it's unusual, and it's not particularly that the effect is particularly marvellous, I don't think. I think there's just something about from the get-go it occupies a different space than most magic, most card magic. Now, having said about the effect, when I did magic in Bristol many years ago, I one of my first restaurant jobs was at a restaurant called the Glass Boat, which isn't there anymore, and it was like a floating restaurant called the glass boat, which isn't there anymore, and it was like a floating restaurant on the water. And, uh, I would do magic around the tables. And I approached a table and I remember there were sort of a couple of guys there, like maybe they're having a meeting, and I said oh, hello, I'm darren, I'm a'm a kind of magician which was always my way in. Can I show you something? And the guy said and I had a deck of cards in my hand. And the guy said oh, actually, if you don't mind, no, sorry, we're just in the middle of a meeting and I went oh, that's okay, no problem.
Speaker 1:And as I went to walk away he said but, queen of Hearts, 13 cards down from the top. And he sort of said it in a jokey kind of way. So I sort of laughed and that was the end of it. But of course, when I went around the corner I thought I presume he was just joking, being funny, but I will just check and the queen of hearts was 13 cards down from the top. That really stayed with me. So I mean that that's just one of those beautiful moments that, um, I don't know, I never really, I never asked him about it. I think by the time I had a chance to he'd have gone, or I didn't want to, or something. But uh, that certainly stayed with me. So I think under the right circumstances it can be can be a pretty devastating effect so the version that you looked into, is it from burglars book?
Speaker 1:I, yes, I, yeah, I presume. So I presume that's the kind of the original version. I mean, yeah, I I don't really know my way around any of the myriad of more modern versions, but they all, they all seem to compromise somewhere that you know a card is picked, or there's some kind of something that just puts the compromise in a very visible space, which I think is a shame. It's not really where you want it. The love of Burglars' effect is that you've got the number and you've got the card, and then you find your way. After that you just have to work with two random variables and a certain amount of chicanery. That is helping you, but you have to really think on your feet. And that's lovely. It'd be a shame if it was sort of mechanical. That would take all the joy out of it.
Speaker 2:Do you think it's still one of those effects as well that lends itself to close-up in an intimate situation rather than on stage? Or do you still think that in an intimate situation rather than on stage? Or do you still think that there's a place for it on stage?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a good question. I can't really imagine it working very well on stage. David Berglaas was a master at taking small close-up effects and making them work very well on stage and finding giant versions of that I never saw him do. If he had a stage version of Cardo any number, which I presume he did I didn't ever see it, so I'm sure he'd have found a way of making that really work. I think, because, in my gut because it's the sort of trick at its best that you don't necessarily know where you're going to. Well, you kind of know where you're going to end up, but you don't know how you're going to. Well, you kind of know where you're going to end up, you don't know how you're going to get there, um, but that's a safer thing in a, in an intimate setting. Uh, I think on on stage, matters of pace and structure and so on, a little more, a little more pressing, so I I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it on stage at all, but I'm sure david had some great solutions to that.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna blow my nose now, excuse me uh, great, really, really interesting first choice as well. Um, it's not one that I would have would have thought of immediately either. Um, but it's a great one and, again, lots of people are going to have that book, so hopefully it will reignite their passion to to to go check back through that book find one of those routines and work on it.
Speaker 1:All the fun of it is in the nuances and the just brilliant ways of getting around certain problems. And, you know, I think you need to have lived and breathed it for a long time, as David did, to have found those. So, yeah, it's a terrific book.
Speaker 2:So that brings us straight onto your second trick. So I'm guessing we're going to go for one of your own now.
Speaker 1:I'm afraid so. So I don't say any of this because I think these are better than other people's tricks at all far from it, but they're just tricks that I've sort of worked for a long time when I used to do close-up. Some of these are taken from my stage stuff, and this trick I included in notes from a fellow traveler, which is the book that I've got out at the moment Four Magicians and although it's really about performing and about, I think, how to just make your magic more impactful, I did want to include some tricks in it. So I put this in it because it was one of my favorite close-up things that I did and it was almost over before it started. As an effect it's called, by the way, it's called Watch to Sock, in that it needed a name, but that doesn't quite, perhaps, sell it.
Speaker 1:But I'd approach someone at a table, I'd introduce myself oh hi, I have something for you, would you mind standing up? And I'd stand them up and I'd lift my trouser leg so that the bottom of the trouser came up and they'd see there was a lump in my sock and I'd said have you any idea what that is? It is for you. And I said go and reach in and take it out, so they'd sort of, you know, bend over and reach into my sock and it would be their watch, because I hadn't like spoken to them before or anything. It was just a really hopefully really surreal, odd, quick thing and if it worked well, I normally wouldn't do anything else at that table, I'd just leave it at that.
Speaker 1:I was really fond of it and it sort of came from watching Carl Cloutier. He had a gimmick that he used for getting a card into his sock, which was essentially a kind of silk sheath. It was like a tube that would go from his pocket like a false pocket in his trousers. That would just be a bottomless thing that would go down into the sock. And with a bit of adjustment I found a way of making a similar thing for a watch, which is kind of easier in a way, because it's a heavier object. So as long as you can steal a watch while you're standing, somebody up, and then so I've got something for you and a couple of pockets you can drop this thing in. And yeah, I loved all the tricks I did going around these restaurants I worked in Again, this is in Bristol really more than anywhere many years ago All things that I kind of dreamt up.
Speaker 1:I didn't have anything else to do, so I'd spend my days walking around thinking up ideas and then going out and uh and trying them in the in the evening and uh, and I remember, I remember I I was very much into stealing watches and I remember one lady. I remember me saying to her I'd stolen the watch and I had it in my sock and I was just trying different ways with the trick. So I said, oh no, no, I didn't have it in my sock, I had it in my pocket. That's right, this is before I had the tube. And I said, oh, do you have the time or you know some not very imaginative way into making her realise I'd sold no watch? So she went to look at her watch, saw the bare wrist and said oh no, I don't have my watch. I mean it's at home, which I thought was an interesting starting point for a trick, because I had a watch in my pocket. So I said oh, ok, ok, whereabouts is it? She said, oh, it's on my dressing table.
Speaker 1:Obviously she just misremembered, presumed she hadn't put it on. I don't wear it very often. So I got her to describe it to me and then I sort of held my hands out, put my hands together like this and said put your hands over mine and describe it as vividly as you can so you can really see the thing. And then, of Of course, I made it appear in my hands and then said now can you see it? Asked everyone else at the table if they could see it. I said, great, I'll take it. And when you go home you'll find it isn't on your dressing table, and so on. So that was fun as well. So I said pickpocketing, watch stealing, all of that was definitely part of the repertoire. But yeah, watch to sock is my second selection.
Speaker 2:Great, uh, interesting one. Now the the thing with stealing watches is the revelation of the watch at the end. Now, if you are a pickpocket magician, then that revelation absolutely fine, it's, it's perfect as part of your persona. But was that born from the frustration of not having a way to reveal that watch afterwards?
Speaker 1:I think it came out of just the joy of seeing Carl Cloutier's trick I think it was that and it just seemed like a watch. It's fun when you can take two ideas and then combine them into one, and what I loved about it was the grammar of it, that the trick was over before it had started, because obviously the person's being stood up A you need that distraction to steal the watch. But also there's no, you know, they're really not, there's no sense that anything has started. So I think it was just the joy of that. But, yes, you're right, the sort of the trouble with, yeah, a lot of pickpocketing is that is the reveal and how you make it more interesting.
Speaker 1:Apollo Robbins has got some really lovely thoughts on that. It reminds me, actually, of a running gag on Showman, which was the last stage show that I did. So the guys backstage at the time I think it was Alex Hansford, a chap called Tom Barford who came in later, and Andy Frost and Bradley Hodgins, who you may know at least three of those, if not all four as amazing magicians. But a running gag which just became hilarious was to just hold up a random object behind someone's shoulder whilst in the middle of the conversation. So I'd be talking to Brad and Andy would just be next to Brad, and then, whilst talking to Brad, I'd just see Andy, just you know, hold up a wallet or just his own, you know, just some random thing off the table. But that kind of became funny, particularly funny when you're on stage trying to do a show and it's happening in the wings as they try to make you laugh.
Speaker 2:That was funnier in real life than it was as a story well, I was going to say what was, what was the funniest thing that they managed to hold up, that? That made you laugh okay.
Speaker 1:Well, the honest answer to this so many years ago, in enigma I think it was Enigma, or maybe Evening of Wonders, I forget they're all the same there was a trick that involved a deck of cards and a dice, a die I'm so sorry and something else, I can't remember what, but rolled up in silver foil, and then I kind of got my hands I'm reading the number on the number on the dial, whatever it is. Anyway, I would have a little bit in that where I would have to put myself into a sort of a state in order to do it and I basically I would use the moment to have a little vocal warm-up, which is quite a handy thing to do in a show and also it involves making weird noises. So then the audience would laugh and and then I would laugh and I had like a little corpsing moment where I couldn't carry on for a moment because I was laughing, because they were laughing, sort of thing. But of course, after you know you do that a few nights and you know it's sort of it isn't really necessarily that funny to do. So I said to the guys oh, feel free If you want to make me laugh in the wings, this would be a really good point to do it. So I've got a really clear view into the wings. I've got three people on stage looking at me, Um, but uh, they're not. You know, I'm looking past them into the wings, so feel free.
Speaker 1:So, um, I remember Ian Sharkey was on that show and he really went to great lengths, he wearing my clothes one night that I left him in the dressing room with a sign saying I'm not wearing any pants. He was just in my pants another night he was the spirit of theatre one night as well, with a sun and moon cutout and was dancing around. Anyway, none of this actually was funny Like in the moment. It was just like, oh, okay, he's doing that, but it wasn't actually. Whatever weird head state you're in doing a show, it wasn't actually that funny.
Speaker 1:And then one night my now ex-partner Mark, came to see the show and they said if you want to try and make Darren laugh at this moment, do Mark. He dropped his trousers and pants and squatted in the wings. So I'm in the middle of this trick and I look and I see this sort of pink shape. I'm like oh Jesus. And also I'm very aware that he won't have any real sense of what can be seen Like from, because you're very aware, when you're in the wings as a professional, that the people at the far end of the first row will be able to see. But there I am looking at my then partner squatting unpleasantly, knowing that he can be seen by you know.
Speaker 1:And then, and then he saw, so I did start laughing for the first time. He started laughing and then very quickly tried to to get up and hide, but unfortunately he had his trousers and pants around his ankle so he sort of fell and rolled, uh, towards the stage and became even more visible. I don't know who saw him. I just carried on with the show and hope no one, no one else, would notice. Um, and then I thought what is people's experience of? You know what?
Speaker 2:is, what are they?
Speaker 1:thinking. What are the rest of the crew thinking? Oh, he has them waiting in the wings. Um, anyway, so yeah, that was that was that was that probably shouldn't have told that story. It's not very pleasant.
Speaker 2:I don't even know where to go from this point, so let's just go straight on to number three. So what was in your third position?
Speaker 1:straight from number two, so this is also in in notes from a fellow traveller I wanted to put my so the few things that have sort of lingered from my sort of close-up days. It's so weird how you kind of lose you lose a sort of muscle for it really so this became. So I feel like a lot of magicians and mentalists. There's a sort of a holy grail as to what you can do if people stop you in the street and ask you to do something, and bizarrely it doesn't really ever happen. It used to happen a lot to me. It doesn't really so much now, but certainly for a long time.
Speaker 1:I thought I need an answer to this question and I knew I didn't want to carry any props around me, so that just kind of made it more of a creative challenge as to what the prop-less version of it would be. However, I did have one prop that had just become part of my everyday stuff and that was one of those ring flight cases, if remember those. So I guess this trick has gone through different iterations since, but the first version of that was a um, like a reel in a key case. So I, I, I just used to have it in my key case and then years later I stopped doing close-up but I just still had this thing on me. So it didn't feel like a prop, um, and I um. So I thought, well, I could, there's that like, that is a, that's a prop that I got on me. But I know, vanishing somebody's ring it would be very weird thing for for me to do that. It's not really kind of part of my world. So one of the things I talk about in the in this book, um, is ways of doing close-up, in particular types of tricks where you can extricate yourself from the climax of the trick.
Speaker 1:In other words, part of the reason why magicians and mentalists often seem smug is that we often don't know what to do with the moment when the trick hits and the person goes wow, that's amazing. And you're like how do you, what do you, what do you do with that, with that moment? So for someone a bit introverted like me, like the best solution is well, just don't make sure you're not there for that. For that moment, I just let it be an entirely personal, private experience to the person. So I started looking at how would you do this, and I remember I was in morocco smoking one of, I think three cigars that I've had in my life. It's horrible. Uh, with fergus flanagan, I'm sure you know, and we were, um, talking about this sort. The solution was, or what once.
Speaker 1:It was a couple of things we come up with that night and one of them was this um, well, I call I don't know exactly, I think I call it, what do I call it? A trick with a key, what do I call it? I'm actually looking at the contents of the book, but this is a really big book as I can't find it. Anyway, um, a trick with a, I think I call it. So what else could you do? What would be a mentalism trick using that prop? So the scenario would be somebody stopping in the street and saying can you show me a trick? I guess they wouldn't stop in the trick less than you.
Speaker 1:But if, getting into it like an impromptu situation and I've only done this really a few times, but it's worked very well when I have so I'd say, well, we have met before, do you remember? And they're like no, we haven't met. No, no, no, we've met before. We met in Timpson's in the key cutting place, do you remember? No, yeah, you were getting your. You do not remember you were getting your. You should not remember you were getting your key cut, your front door key cut, um, and then, uh, and I said to you that we would meet again. You don't. You don't remember any of this, do you know? Perfect, okay, show me your front door key.
Speaker 1:So they'd give me their front door key, I'd have a look at it and then, uh, I'd throw it away. Um, so, uh, ideally I'd sort of move it as near a manhole cover, or maybe it's off a bridge or somehow I would throw their key away, by which point I normally switched it for a coin or something that looks quite realistic as it flies through the air or down the manhole cover. A little glint of metal, anyway. So now you're in quite a nice position, and then I would say it's okay, we've done this before. You gave me another copy of your key and I said that we wouldn't be here today.
Speaker 1:In fact, hang on, and I get my keys out and I go through my keys and go think it's this one. No, it's this one. It's not exactly the same as yours. Yours had the little owl on the front, this one doesn't, but it's close enough. But that should open your front door and I give them the key and leave them with it, and then they've got their whole walk home with this key thinking why, how, why does Darren Brown got my front door key on his, on his key ring? And they get.
Speaker 1:And then the lovely moment when they're going to actually try it in their door and it's going to open their front door, um, it just seems to me that that's a really lovely way of doing magic and just not making it about yourself in the moment, just giving them something to go to go away with. So, um, that was one of two, two thoughts. The other thought I'm going to go with that one because that just created such a lovely kind of creepy, weird thing. The other one I won't go into now, but that's in the book as well, but I thought it was a fun and sort of counterintuitive way of approaching the effect of a trick and a use for, I think, a really good prop. Also, you don't, there's no ring to lose. I mean, we've all done that before done the trick and have the person's ring is, in my case, falling down a stairwell behind me. Um, so, yeah, no rings to lose either.
Speaker 2:I wish I was a spectator in that moment, though, and I know that we don't often get moments like that ourselves nowadays, but I would love to be in that moment, though, and I know that we don't often get moments like that ourselves nowadays, but I would love to be in that moment and to have that walk home and to think what on earth has just happened. Um, it sort of reminds me of in your last show. You had the, uh, the deck under box, um, and obviously, uh, without giving too much away, it's available online. I think you can go and see it, so I don't want to give too many spoilers to that.
Speaker 1:That might be my number five trick.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, well, then people will find out. I won't say anything more about that, but that has that same moment where it almost feels like I mean being in the theatre. The sad thing is that people won't necessarily be in the theater when that happens, but for me, being in the theater and hearing an onslaught of people around you genuinely start questioning life in general and and what's going on to them. It is just amazing. So, yeah, that that moment would be incredible. It would be that moment where you walk back and go are aliens real? What's happening here? It's also.
Speaker 1:I mean this key trick. It's also a rare example of where you get to have an argument with your participant because you've just thrown the key away and you're giving them another one and then leaving them. I mean, if they believe that that's really what's going on, that is an argument. They're not going to go, oh great, oh wow, I can't wait to go home. And you know there will be an argument, which I think is you know, always fun.
Speaker 2:That's a great choice. And that brings us to your halfway point. So what's in your fourth position?
Speaker 1:I guess by this point I'm thinking I've got to actually think about my career here continuing and what, what, what would be the sort of um absolute stalwarts that I that I continue with. So I've chosen for this the oracle act, which was my q a act from again one of those shows, evening of wonders or enigma, enigma, I think I also did it in on Broadway. So it's kind of it's gone through a few, a few versions and I'm choosing it because I mean it's, it's a sort of potentially could be a show in itself. In fact there's a. I did a Ted talk that was just just the Oracle Act or at least half of it.
Speaker 1:So although at the beginning actually it's an interesting thing with these shows and that was three or four shows in that did that we often sit down. I say we I mean me and andrew connor and andy nyman when we're writing the shows um, uh or uh, stephen long and ian sharky on um svengali. But we're often thinking what, what are the, what are the sort of classics of mentalism that I haven't done? And uh, a thing often happens that I often find myself a little resistant at first, like I didn't think a Q&A act was that interesting. It just felt a bit old fashioned, I think. Probably maybe it's done more now, but certainly at the time it wasn't. And and then you do it and you realize why it's why it works and why it is such a mainstay of of of mentalism. I had the same experience with the psychometry routine in in Shogun, so which which I was wasn't sure which one to use actually for this, but I ended up going with the Oracle.
Speaker 2:But the uh again, I wasn't sure about doing psychometry.
Speaker 1:Isn't that just returning things to people that are objects in bags? And it just again, and I kind of thought maybe there's a more interesting version of it. But it just didn't feel at first glance that interesting and then I just made it about the, about the objects and the people, not really about whose whose object was who. In fact, sometimes I just I'd get that bit wrong and it it became like for me the most gorgeous moment in that show to perform and also became a sort of emotional way through to where the show was going at the end. That was important structurally but it was just sort of it's a very lovely thing to, as with both this and the Oracle, to not really know quite where you're going, that you know you've got certain things in place magically to sort of guarantee you this sort of you know framework, and then after that you just got to really sort of think on your feet and it's all about really kind of creating a sort of a tone and then just getting that tone right and it's a really lovely experience and there aren't many times in a show where you get to have that.
Speaker 1:It's a bit like time stops If you're going out for dinner after the show or something it's tempting to think, in the middle of a more mechanical trick, it's very common to be thinking, oh, we're going out for Thai after this, that'd be lovely, your mind can start to do that, whereas the lovely thing about something like the oracle or whatever, is that you, you, you. There's none of that. You're completely present with it. Um, and on top of that, certainly when we did it on broadway, it was sort of lit very beautifully, and I never get, never get to see what the show looks like because I'm facing the wrong way, but, by all accounts, it looked beautiful as well.
Speaker 1:So, and I was doing a white tie and I've got bandages around my head as you're trying, you know, create a strong, uh, visual image, um, but yeah, I think for that for that experience, that rewarding experience as a performer, of having to be totally present with it and also unavoidably feeling like you're stepping into a tradition that's, you know, had its heyday, I guess, probably in the sort of 20s and 30s, but um, uh, and for good reason, and also like all the best things from a magical point of view, is so simple and um, uh, you know, there's sort of really nothing to it. And you know, I remember a very, very seasoned and knowledgeable magician saying to me I can kind of get my head around how you did it at the start, when you were sort of dealing with people's questions that they'd written in envelopes, but then you stopped using the envelopes and I just don't know how. You know it's lovely't know how you know it's lovely to know how, just for something to have it's like a big psychological story that everybody's getting caught up in because it's so kind of emotionally sort of appealing and it's such a fun sort of ride that you kind of, hopefully, you just sort of stop questioning too much in the audience, stop trying to work it out and also realizing that it's all about the information that you're giving and which, again, is something I've read, is something I knew in theory, that no one really cares how you're doing, it's what you're revealing, but like, that's really true. But that's an amazingly liberating thing because then you can, you can uh, design you, and I make sure when I do the, when I do that q a, that I've got this control over the shape of the material.
Speaker 1:I'm, I'm, I'm giving you know, I've got a um, I can mold it in a way that it'll have a, an arc and so on, but you just get to play with what, what is the most extraordinary and sensational uh stuff, and sometimes you can just make that up and that will just, you know, that will just fly. I mean, those are the best moments and stuff. You're just making up, um, uh, so, yeah, that's a. That's a wonderful thing and I think that, given that that could be an act in itself, I would definitely have to keep that as one of my eight tricks to continue with and I still do it in um, my sort of corporate act on rare occasions when I do that I think um, forgive me if I'm wrong, I think it's in miracle.
Speaker 2:You have sort of a mini q? A. I recall having people, uh, sort of sat into almost bleachers and then I think that's where you lift someone up, I think that's where that ends, but you do like a mini Q&A. But I think you preface it by saying this is all made up, this is all. None of this is real, this is all made up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was. It was an infamous and it was it came out of. It's interesting how these, sometimes the best things, come out of mistakes and real limitations. So it was a real lesson. So we had 52 seats come out on stage. It was the end of act one and the whole scene, the whole set, transforms into a, a, a cathedral. There's a guy who's been put to sleep and he's in a, this whole kind of sarcophagus thing wheels on and been put to sleep, and he's in a, this whole kind of sarcophagus thing wheels on and he's going to be asleep during the interval.
Speaker 1:And um, and these, all these trucks they're called, but the seats come out from the smoke and we and it was for it going to be for a giant card at any number um trick in the second half, and then we took that out. So we just there was a couple of card tricks which just felt a bit too much so, but we were left with all these, this big transformation scene and all these seats, so we couldn't not use them. So one afternoon, having ditched the card at any number trick, we're looking at 52 seats going what else could this be? And it struck me that it looked a bit like a studio audience set up in a studio, which always makes me think of those sort of dodgy mediums when they have their TV shows and they're doing stuff with an audience. So that became that let's do some mediumship. And then it's well, how do you make mediumship interesting?
Speaker 1:And I think it stayed with me, this, because I think theatrically it was interesting because, as you say, I'm saying this, I'm making this up, I'm making this up, this is rubbish. So I've got your, I've got your aunt here Her name is Jan, Is that right, Auntie Jan? And they'd be like yes, and she's saying she's not saying anything. Of course I'm lying to you, but she's saying blah, blah, blah and it would go back and forth like that and it just kind of occupied this interesting space. I think we get rather caught up, particularly as mentalists between you know, are you saying it's real or it's not? Are you this or this? Like? It's a very binary thing and I don't think ultimately your responsibility is to that particular ethical question. I think your responsibility is a theatrical one and actually having this sort of other thing in the air which isn't how is he doing it or is he real? It's just this sort of kind of you know two ideas battling it out in your head.
Speaker 1:He's saying it's rubbish, but at the same time he's saying stuff that's you know two ideas battling it out in your head. He's saying it's rubbish, but at the same time he's saying stuff that's you know, impossibly accurate. That just felt like a really interesting sort of place to sit. And I remember really early on in the tour I came out at Stage Door and there was a girl there and you know bright girl, maybe like in her early 20s, and she said, oh, um, I wonder if you could put me in touch with my grandmother, who's passed away, and you know she'd just seen the show. And I said, oh god. I said I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:I really hoped it's clear from the show that I can't really do any of that stuff. And she, oh, yeah, no, no, I know you can't do any of that stuff, but I just wondered if you could put me in touch with her, which was such an interesting thing for someone to say and said so much about how we are happy to sort of balance these completely contradictory narratives when it comes to this kind of stuff. What we emotionally want to believe and what we intellectually know can be so different. So, yeah, yeah, that was, um, that was uh interesting, and I think that the best stuff in any show uh, certainly as a performer doesn't necessarily translate to the audience's experience, but is when you get to, um, improvise and just have to really, really think, think on your feet. So it's a treat if you're doing you know 300 shows.
Speaker 2:You mentioned that you still do it in your corporate. Do you still get to a stage where that same thing happens to you? Do you see people come up to you and they want you to have talks with their dead relatives, et cetera, et cetera, or has it died out completely now?
Speaker 1:I find it's died out I mean, I I never do, I never do tricks on. You know, I would avoid chat shows and stuff anyway, but if I am ever a guest on something, I never perform and that was a a rule right from the very start, which is is a bit surreal really as a rule, but that kind of served me well and I think, because I'm never doing that stuff in interviews, it sort of maybe doesn't occur to people that I'll just do that stuff at the drop of a hat. And yeah, people don't really ask and if they do ask's normally like, um, somebody being a bit rude anyway, like it's just like I'm having dinner here and they want me to come to our table and uh, love you to, you know, but so really, so really happens. And if it does I said now, if it's a bit rude, anyway, I don't feel bad going, I'm sorry, I'm having dinner, whatever, um, but uh, or we've met before in timpsons oh, however, it takes me, um, so not not too much nowadays, but uh, yeah, there's sort of other other strangenesses that come instead from being well known and from doing the sort of stuff that I do and from the way people respond to anything remotely hypnotic, or you know the card trick that you mentioned in Showman.
Speaker 1:That really was very triggering for a lot of people. It's a card trick but it upset a lot of people. So the stuff I have to deal with is that, rather than I'd love it if it was just oh, can you put me in touch with a dead relative? That would be relatively light.
Speaker 2:Great. So that brings us over your halfway point. So far we've had an Akan, we've had the Watch in Sock, we've had the I'm going to call it Key in River or the Key Trick, the Key Trick, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cool, I like that they have names. It's quite nice not having names. It's a bit like I've never really kind of been very specific about what I do. I like the fact none of my tricks really have names, apart from smoke.
Speaker 2:So number five, yes. So what's in your fifth position?
Speaker 1:Well, there's no particular order to these, but this is where I've got the card to box trick from Showman, from showman, and I think the origin of this um came from the brilliant, mysterious author of the jerks, whom I just I love all of that um, and he had a um, a use for the invisible deck where you I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, but it was something like you convince the person that they've put the card, they've turned the card around themselves and that you've made them forget it, that you've sort of hypnotized them. And I'd always loved Jay Sanky's trick I don't know what it's called, but it's such a brilliant thing where you, you make somebody forget a card that they've just seen. And it's just, it's a mechanical card trick, that is, one person seems to have forgotten it. Everyone else knows they were just looking at a totally different card. Um, uh, so I've always loved those sorts of those ideas. Um, because it creates something bigger. It just creates a bigger question is in the air than than just you know how you did that, or you know how you found the card, or whatever the normal questions often are for magic. So, um, I, uh.
Speaker 1:One of my mainstays when I used to do my hypnosis shows was that on a certain cue people would get up and go and do something and come and sit back down again and have no memory of doing it, and it was always really fun watching somebody think through the fact that their I don't know that their um, but their wallet was over the other side of the stage or that someone else had it in the audience when they were just really holding onto it, cause by this point you know it's the fifth time it's happened. So they're sitting there. They sat on their wallet and then seemingly three seconds later it's not there. So it felt like this this could be a fun thing. So the trick if people haven't seen it is a three-stage trick and the first stage is somebody comes up out of the audience. I sit them down at the table.
Speaker 1:There's a strange moment where I do a sort of hypnotic induction thing and then the microphone goes off and we don't hear this little bit of a conversation I have with them, and then I tell them that I'm going to do a card trick. They pick a card and there's a box on the table and I say put your hand on the card. And we've all seen what it is it's going to disappear from under your hand and appear in the box. And I say it'll happen on the count of three. And we go one, two and all the lights go out, and there's a long pause and I say three, the lights come back up and the card's in the box. And it's sort of funny but seems more like a gag. And then I explained to them how it worked and I said it worked because you put it in the box when you came and sat down. I put you to sleep, you won't remember. And I told you that you'd put it in the box yourself and you won't remember doing it. And they don't believe that. Um, it just seems like a silly explanation.
Speaker 1:So we'll do it again, but this time we'll leave the lights up and I take the box, put on the floor this time and we do it again. And sure enough, between two and three as I count from three, the guy gets up, walks around, puts the card in the box and sits back down again and has no memory of doing it. And also we film it and then I could play it back to him. So now he watches on the screen himself getting up and doing it and then the third phase, um, which is the most satisfying, is doing the same trick on the audience. So this time we say, okay, we'll do it again, but this time we get somebody to guard the box. And there was a real issue with this trick was keeping the logic of it right. So, and it sounds silly, but I mean, it was like we all know how it's working in the audience. So why are we guarding the box? Why are we upping the stakes? So it was all about creating. It was all for this person on stage.
Speaker 1:Well, if you think I'm just doing it with some sleight of hand, look, this time we'll get someone to guard the box. So someone's guarding box which is hanging from a rope, someone's staring at that from the audience, not going to take their eyes off it. This time he's going to sign the card and he's got his hand on that on the table. Count to three. And then I say, before I count, to the audience this will work with some of you as well. And then I count one, two, and then there's a sort of a like a glitch, the lights go out for a second and, um, one, two. Is it one, two, three, or one, three? Or is it one, two, three, four, five? God, I can't even remember. Somehow I've missed out numbers. Is it one, two, five? It's one two, five, isn't it? I'm sure that's it. Yeah, sorry, it's counted to five, not counted to three, I think. Um, anyway, uh, there's a glitch and the number some of I haven't counted all the numbers, whatever they are and the card's gone from under his hand and the chair I was sat on is over the other side of the stage. It's underneath where this box was hanging. The box is swinging and, sure enough, his signed card is in the box on the other side of the stage. But the audience had missed it too, and that was the moment that you were talking about earlier, which it was so interesting.
Speaker 1:Doing this for the first time, because what follows that moment is us walking over to the swinging box, it coming down him, the person saying no, I never took my eyes off it. They can't understand. The person guarding the box can't understand what's happened. And the person takes a box and opens it up and takes it out and, sure enough, it's their sign card inside. It's a really, it's a really good card trick and there was like a lot of thought that went into it but no one's paying any attention at all because the whole audience are just like did you just miss that? You know they're all having this sort of there's just this murmur and sort of a general hubbub and confusion. So I'm just carrying on and night after night I kind of got used to it I'm carrying on with the trick, knowing that no one is listening or watching, to get to the end of this terrific card trick, which of course also owes a lot to Guy Hollingworth, just to credit him. That's due.
Speaker 1:So that was, that was such a joy to do, and part of it A, it never not worked and I every night I didn't. I was sort of like I didn't quite I wasn't sure if it was going to work a lot. So there was a real uh tension for me in it which made it really fun. And I, we had a sort of plan b and c that we um when I say we, I mean me and also but if I, I change anything, all the you know, lighting and sound, all that's got to change too. So as a team we sort of had this like a backup plans, but never had to use them.
Speaker 1:It always, it always just worked, some nights better than others in terms of how the person behaved and you know how well they're. They're sort of just how um entertaining it was, I suppose. Um, and sometimes people, when they're on stage, especially when there's something hypnotic in the air, they can um, they start to feel like they're playing along, which is so annoying, or sometimes they do the opposite and they just go a bit sleepy, which also kind of takes the edge off it. So it really varied as to what the trick felt like, but sort of, but it always worked and always had this sort of jeopardy to it and always had this just gorgeous moment of just knowing that this sort of bomb was just about to sort of land in the audience, as it, as it were, not an actual bomb was lovely, so I adored that. And then, of course, the kicker of the trick, which I'm forgetting, is at the very end of the show. The audience had then played the time that they'd missed, which is the footage of the person walking across the stage and putting the, putting the card in the box. The thing that they all missed, or most of them missed, um, I remember, uh, a really interesting thing of I was in birmingham and I'd been to see a physio a couple of times there because I had a some problem in my back or something, and, and as often when I'm at a physio, I end up talking a lot about having a whole discussion with them about, you know, pain and the show Miracle, where I was doing the faith healing, and I ended up inviting this guy to come and see the show.
Speaker 1:And he came with his wife and he said oh, you're probably. Whatever you're going to do, you'll probably get me, because I'm really suggestive. I'm always being hypnotized my wife's not, though, but you'll probably get me. I thought, ok, well, maybe you'll end up on stage or whatever. I never get people up, that I know, but that was that. And then he came and saw the show, and then he came out afterwards. I've got to get this right, because it was really. It was really right. So he told me that he was very hypnotizable.
Speaker 1:Anyway, he comes around afterwards, so after this trick has finished the show, and he said uh, he said it was really interesting, you didn't get me at all. Actually, I didn't fool me. The car trick didn't fool me, but it completely fooled my wife. Um, I, we had a big argument about it. In fact I remember seeing the guy walk across. I totally saw it walk across, which she didn't. She fell for it, she forgot the 10 seconds. And it was a really interesting thing to kind of unravel that he was so suggestible that he had filled in the time for himself and convinced himself that it had happened and of course it hadn't worked for her in the same way. She'd just seen what you know a non-suggestible person would see, but that had meant in his mind that she'd fallen for it. It was just a really kind of interesting, confusing moment for me in the dressing room afterwards. So yeah, that was a really a real delight. And then after that I killed a fish.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes you killed a fish.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, you did. Towards the end. What was great. I mean, you're never going to have the experience of it, but from being in the audience, that effect actually had sort of like a two, two parter in terms of the reactions, because I remember having one person to my left who it had worked, sort of. So they were like, yeah, well, you know, I don't know, I don't think it really happened. Then I had someone on my right, this, this lady, who was just my, my god, how, how has he done that? This doesn't normally work on me, just pure shock.
Speaker 2:And then the end of the show happens. So they get to see this part and there was a moment where the guy on my left completely switched and the whole ground beneath him just swallowed him up and it's almost like he couldn't. He couldn't backtrack, but he couldn't also admit to himself that he'd been caught with it. So he he didn't know where to go, that, he didn't know how to digest it, he couldn't really talk, he couldn't, he couldn't compute what was going on at all. So it's lovely that if you didn't get them the first time, you were going to get them by the end of it yes, yes, that's a really yes.
Speaker 1:I suppose that's a good point. It's like a pincer movement, isn't it? It's going to get you one, yeah, one way or the other. But it was, as I mentioned earlier. It was really surprising how upsetting that trick was for some people. So we started getting like angry letters about it and like the first I think the first time someone was really upset about it, you see, sort of kind of thing oh well, it's just, you know, someone's upset about it. It's a bit odd, but I hope they're okay and kind of much about that.
Speaker 1:But then it became a bit of a not a regular thing, but certainly enough to kind of really pay attention to. Uh, to the extent that I then had to change the trick and put in um, you know, don't, don't take part in this, close your eyes now if you suffer from any form of ptsd, um, or if you've, you know, if you uh, can't even quite remember what the list of things was, but I think ptsd, think PTSD was the big one, or whatever passes for PTSD nowadays, because I think the idea of first of all suppressing a memory and being made to forget something is potentially a delicate one if you've had bad stuff happen to you that you have suppressed, had bad stuff happen to you that you have suppressed, and also it's quite a violating thing just the idea that you could really get inside someone's head without their permission, which, of course, to me is just what I do, and I don't really think about it as anything that's going to be upsetting for people as an idea. But I think all the things you're saying there, like that the ground can really fall out from beneath you, and how that that can mean really different things to different people. So there we were with a card trick that was causing proper distress to some, to some people, not just being angry, but, like you know, people you know shaking um in tears, sobbing it, really weird um, um situations that kind of like came out of it. So that was, that was fascinating, because I've often had moments like that when I've toured um particularly there's anything sort of hypnotic in the, in the show. But we didn't think that the card trick would, um, would be what would, uh, what would get people there the most. So, yeah, you never uh, you never know.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, then you have to, you do have to change it, you have to be you know, take those things uh seriously and you want to find a way of changing it that doesn't soften the effect if that only adds to it. And then, of course, adding it, adding in a, um, a disclaimer, do not take, take that. I would say leave the theatre now. If you suffer from any of these things, including PTSD and others, go, step outside and the ushers will bring you back in. And of course, all of that only adds to the electricity of the moment. But was a genuinely necessary thing to call for, because you don't want to just soften the effect and make it half as good because a small percentage of people are triggered by it. You want to respond to that responsibly, whilst also having your responsibility to the show and the rest of the audience. It was a tricky and interesting one, all of which is covered in notes from a fellow traveller.
Speaker 2:Which I've got my little copy here.
Speaker 1:You've got one in the background. I love it.
Speaker 2:I do have it there, and there's your deck of cards as well, which was also very interesting. It was like a little virtual online hunt that we had to go through.
Speaker 1:Oh, I met someone the other day who had won that. I never. So when we produced the deck of cards Jonathan Boehm who I guess runs Theory 11, he suggested well, let's put some kind of treasure hunt or something in. Sometimes we do these things, and so I mean you, literally I'll say it's all over now. So I don't think there's any problem with me saying it. If you bought the boxed edition, then in the box there was a little card with something on it. But if you felt inside the envelope, do you know any of this? Have you done?
Speaker 2:it. Yeah, I've got the envelope up there as well.
Speaker 1:You felt inside the envelope there was a message in Braille and it was some numbers Like A. Who is going to do that? But clearly some people did. If you take those numbers as coordinates, I think you get to Todmorden, which is a town in the north of England that I did one of my shows in. So now you realize you must be on to something. Shows in um. So now you realize you must be on to something.
Speaker 1:There's, uh, a sort of a running thing, I think, in the packaging around this book, around the um, the uh deck of cards that it looks like a book, and I think there's a reference to a, a title. I can't. I can't remember what it is. But either way, if you google you, then you're going to hopefully want to Google bookshops in Tottenham and if you do, you get to one and there's something on the front page of that that is a sort of a clue that lets you know you're on the right track. I think probably whatever this title is that has come up is right there on the front page, and then you're going to be looking through that site and it's the crossword, there's a puzzle on the front page, and then you're going to be looking through that site and it's the crossword.
Speaker 1:There's a puzzle page on the website and if you do the crossword, I think it's the one clue. That doesn't work, that doesn't fit, and that word is the password, and if you type in that password somewhere, you win the prize. I mean the thought that anybody would even feel around inside an empty envelope, let alone do all of that. And then I just I met someone the other day. He came to see one of the um previews of unbelievable uh and uh he, he had done all of that and he was like yeah, yeah, I just did that and felt the braille and you know the ending of it yeah, extraordinary, um.
Speaker 1:So there we are. If anybody else is trying, that's what you have to do my question for you, based on on what you just said.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know in your book you reference, uh, the lady who was at the bar and, um, she sort of having an episode of some sort and you try and get her out of it and talk her out of it. When you have the people you mentioned that. You also put the warning in Number one. Did the warning actually stop those things from happening? And number two, if they did happen, how did you get around those people being upset or angry?
Speaker 1:It greatly reduced it. There were two things that I realised I was having more issues with people responding strangely to the suggestion and hypnosis throughout. And there was. There was sort of some suggestion-based routines in the first half, but very light, nothing, nothing, um, that you'd think would be upsetting and I don't think they were, but nonetheless it was sort of creating this atmosphere of hypnosis in the room. Um. So, and I realized, after 20 years of doing it and having sometimes people react badly to it, but always being able to sort it out, I realized that what was all that was happening was they were having a panic attack.
Speaker 1:So people that were prone to panic attacks anyway, maybe they joined in with the suggestion routine with the audience and they'd close their eyes. And at the end I've said, you know, wake up. Routine with the audience. And they'd close their eyes. And at the end I've said, you know, wake up and open your eyes. And they haven't been able to open their eyes. And sometimes that does happen, like if you're doing it with a group of people, sometimes someone takes a little longer to come out of it, and but I think if you, if you feel a bit lost in a crowd of a couple of thousand people and it is taking you a little while to come out of it and the show's carrying on. You might get it into your head of, oh I'm stuck, I'm I'm stuck, um, and again, that might not bother a large percentage of people, but I think if you're also a bit prone to panic attacks and then that kicks in, then you've got, uh, this sort of self-perpetuating things. It's a panic attack plus you can't open your eyes and you think you're hypnotized and that's what's created it, as opposed to I'm having a panic attack and I'm telling myself I can't open my eyes. So it was interesting and I realized that that's what it was. So that was the other thing I remember saying don't take part in this if you're at all prone to panic attacks and if you have a talker under panic attacks and if you um have any issues with ptsd. And interestingly, I think it maybe happened once or twice after I put that in, and but both times it was people that ignored the warning and took part, despite the fact that they did one on one of other. Those things did affect them, um. And then, as to how to deal with it, I mean, there's no, I get.
Speaker 1:This is all stuff I talk about in the book because I was writing notes from a fellow traveler during the day, so I was doing the show in the evening and I wanted to write about performance as well as like writing a show and putting it together, because a lot more people are doing that nowadays and I'd sort of kind of written my book for close up many years ago. So I thought this would be a good thing to do. But because I was doing it during the day, I was including experiences, often from the night before on stage, which is why it's quite a long book, because it was a long tour. So I thought I would include these things in the book because it was all part of the wider experience of doing the show and I wanted to sort of offer advice, because there isn't really much around for people if they are using hypnosis or anything, as to what to do. Uh, and I think the answer to in for me is always just to be present and patient and, uh, to just be with, with the person, slowly, let them inch their way out of it and to understand what their experience is. Well enough that you can. It's a very powerful thing when you can feed back to a person what you know they're experiencing and guide them to the next sort of stage, as opposed to thinking, oh, she just wants attention, she'll get out of it, get the bucket of water and things like that which I've sort of stage, as opposed to thinking, oh, she's just, she just wants attention, she'll get out of it, get the bucket of water and things like that which I've sort of heard done, which I mean maybe that stuff works sometimes, but to me it's just all of it all a bit wrong. Um, every time it happens I think the person's going to be angry and upset and I'm going to get into terrible trouble for it. All the rest of it and actually very touchingly it's it's always. They're always very appreciative of the time.
Speaker 1:So in the book I talk about a woman who gets her head stuck to the table in the bar in. I can't even remember where it was now, but Nottingham, I think. So in the interval. So there have been some very light hypnotic stuff in the first half. And then I get a message in the interval saying this woman's got her head stuck to the bar except in the first half. And then I get a message in the interval saying, this woman's got her head stuck to the bar and I think by this point people were starting to come back in for the second half.
Speaker 1:So I went up and there she was, but she was furious and angry. Luckily I say luckily for me she did look like she was drunk. So I don't think anybody was thinking that there was a problem, other than maybe someone had too much to drink, uh, but she wasn't. But she was uh oddly furious, um, as in like very kind of you know, really vitriolic about it, and I ended up, um sort of having to just go back and do the second half of the show because she wouldn't let me help her. She wouldn't let me even begin to help her and by this point she'd come off the table. She was on the on the floor and she couldn't get up uh.
Speaker 1:And I remember sort of the end of the conversation was me saying well, I'm gonna. If you don't want me to help you, I've got to go and carry on with the show. Now she's like, yeah, okay, well, you enjoy the second half of your show. And I'm like, yeah, okay, I will. And then I'm doing the rest of the show, thinking why did I get a bit chippy with it at the end.
Speaker 1:Plus, I'm doing the second half of the show thinking, you know, I'm talking to someone about the deceased relative's sentimental objects and I'm thinking in the back of my head there's a woman stuck to the floor in the bar upstairs. So then I did go up afterwards and by this point St John's ambulance had been called and the air had been sort of cordoned off and she'd got over the anger side of it. Now she was just upset and I could spend time with her, and then it was very different. Then she was happy for me to talk to her and then she came out of it and everything was fine, other than the fact, you know, she'd been asleep for a long time.
Speaker 1:So, you know, in a bit of an awkward position, things like that Again, you just need to be careful and present and just really have that experience happen to you enough times that you know how having a, a hug and a bit of a laugh about it and buying them a drink and just those things that just create a story of what's happened, which is really all it is it's somebody just succumbing to a story of what they think is going on that you make that story feel uh right, and but unfortunately you know if people are, if they're, if their friends are panicking or if, if you know we call an ambulance, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1:That really doesn't help. That's going to make a person panic so much more. So there's quite a lot of that sort of management of things. Luckily this doesn't happen very often. And she said she was happy and I got a really sweet card from her and her husband is just sort of sat there watching the whole thing, not sure what to do, really sort of thanking me for my time afterwards, which always, you know, surprises and touches me when you know people say that as opposed to you know, how dare you. So yeah, that wasn't the card trick, that was just making people forget the number seven, you know, in the first half of the show. So you just never, you never know. And you have to, you do have to take this stuff seriously and be responsible about it, because you never, you never know what people are bringing to bringing to the table.
Speaker 2:It was such an amazing trick to see live and it was just so wonderfully constructed and it was. Yeah, it was a joy. Sadly, it's one of those things that you're not going to get the same reaction as being in the audience.
Speaker 1:Well, we didn't know how to show it on TV, of course. That whole card to boxing, I mean it sort of dawned on us at some point. Hang on, we're going to film this. What are you going to watch on TV? There's so many layers of difficulty to that because if it happens, if it's if that person has crossed the stage and put the card in the box, you would see that at home. Or if you haven't, because you've been hypnotized in the moment and missed it, you certainly see if you go back and watch it. So then why aren't you, why aren't you seeing it? And then, and then, really just in the end, it had to become about.
Speaker 1:This is something that happened to the people in the audience. This was what would happen to you if you'd have come and seen the show live. This was their experience and not trying to make it an effect for uh, for people at home. So that was sort of, ultimately, what we At one point we were going to cut to me cooking at home. We were going to go one, two, and then it would cut to me making poached eggs and talking about how you the ideal way of poaching an egg, and then it would cut back to the stage five and you know we were playing around with all sorts of weird ways out of it. I think in the end we just sort of we just lingered on the audience and just sort of created this. Here is an odd moment for the audience which I think kind of sort of elegantly answered that without answering it hello guys.
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