Desert Island Tricks
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Desert Island Tricks
Oliver Meech
This week we welcome the multifaceted magician and creative powerhouse, Oliver Meech, to our magical island. Oliver's unique blend of magic and psychological insight has not only earned him a place at Oxford University but has also fueled an eclectic career that spans stage performances, close-up magic, and innovative advertising. Through his captivating stories and intriguing projects, including lectures at the Magic Circle and a new book, Oliver shares the secrets behind his magical journey and his significant influence on the magic community.
Oliver's passion for card magic and storytelling shines through as he takes us on a journey from his early inspirations to his latest creative endeavors. Explore the fascinating psychological subtleties of classic illusions like Karl Fulves' "Gemini Twins" and dive into the world of mentalism, where narratives transform simple tricks into profound experiences. Oliver reflects on the power of magic literature and the legendary Davenport's magic shop, and how these elements helped shape his path. With insights from iconic magicians like John Bannon and Andy Nyman, Oliver illustrates the limitless creative potential within the craft.
As the conversation unfolds, we delve into the creative process behind Oliver's mesmerizing illusions, highlighting how magic can transcend traditional boundaries to captivate audiences worldwide. From the art of reimagining routines using everyday objects to the balance between originality and audience engagement, Oliver's stories offer a glimpse into the creative mind of a magician who continues to innovate and inspire. Join us for an episode brimming with magical concepts, personal anecdotes, and a deep exploration of the psychological and creative aspects that make magic an ever-evolving art form.
Oliver's Desert Island Tricks:
- Gemini Twins
- Killer Elite Pro
- Holy Moly
- Hydrostatic Glass
- Word-o
- B’Wave
- Snaps
- Coin Jar
Book. Be More Funny
Item. Biscuits
Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk
And it's funny on that note. So magic helped me get in, which is fun In the run up to it. You know, like my school was very supportive. You know, school sometimes they're, you know they're more sort of academic conventional. And so beforehand they did say not sure whether you should mention the magic, you know, because it's not. You know it's not proper academic subjects, you know, maybe stick to that law. And I was like, yeah, but I was thinking even back then, this is before gustav kuhn did all his amazing work on it. You know, obviously, yeah, but there's still plenty of psychology and magic going on here, you know, it's just a different flavor coming from a different approach.
Speaker 1:So I thought, you know, I'm gonna mention it anyway and then I got to the interview and he was like yeah, well, you know, I've got, you know, I've got 20 people here.
Speaker 1:You know they've all got. You know they've all got a's, they've all done. You know whatever they are. You know prefix and blah, blah, blah, like you know what, and then looked down it and then went but what's magic? Tell me about magic. And so they went. You know how does? How does magic, psychology fit in? And then we ended up having I don't know about about two-thirds of the thing was just talking about magic and how you know psychology and how that might work or what the underpinnings are, how it might overlap, because you know, like anyone else, is it? You know it's your 15th interview of the day and you're looking for something a bit different. You go, oh, that'd be nice. And then that was. I mean, it wasn't the only thing, but it definitely helped. So I was like, well, there we go. You know, so that's a good thing. You know, tell anyone listening who's young. You know, tell your parents that, yeah, go like, keep doing magic and you can get into a good university.
Speaker 3:Hello and welcome to another episode of Desert Island Tricks. We have another phenomenal guest waiting today. Now, today's guest is again a really lovely person. If you ever get the chance to meet him, please do. He's such a lovely person, always gives such great advice and gives lots of his times.
Speaker 3:Now, he actually originally sort of studied experimental psychology at the University of Oxford, so you can sort of see, maybe, what his background interests are. He's also done talks for, like TEDx, the Magic Circle. He's very, very knowledgeable in fields of science. So I had the opportunity to actually see him at the Magic Circle lecturing a few months ago for the Young Magicians Club and that was such a fun clever, really, really clever, especially something involving a jar. It was such a clever talk and all of the kids absolutely loved it, and magicians will as well. So if he is lecturing, I very, very, very much recommend booking him in to uh have a lecture, because he is so engaging and he's just had a new book out as well. So you know not that we're plugging anything here, but do go check it out. And today's guest is the wonderful mr oliver meach hello, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:What a nice introduction. Thank you well to say my knowledge is. My knowledge is not across the entire world of science is not that broad, but the rest of the age I'm just hasten to add. But in terms of psychology, I've got a big area on there and all the rest of it is all good. So, yeah, I'm happy to be here. I love the podcast, so it's really fun to be doing it.
Speaker 3:Okay, so that's my questions about aliens and the meaning of life out of the window for today disappointing, already shocking but I think your list of tricks is going to be quite quirky and diverse. That's my, my theory. I think there's going to be a good mixture of different things in there, maybe one or two curveballs as well yeah, that was the goal essentially.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the job because that that may be coming up. But other than that, like I've tried to do a real breath because I think I've, you know, some people, some people rule about you know one thing forever, but I've, you know, over the years, I've done we'll see but I've done. You know, I've done stage stuff, I've done close-up, I've done kid stuff, I've done talks, I've done Edinburgh shows, I've done. You know, whatever I'm, I love, I love variety and I love creativity, so that kind of I think that I think that comes through. I tried to. Also, it wasn't just, you know, I love, I love a card trick, but like it wasn't just eight card tricks, whatever.
Speaker 1:So yeah, hopefully there's a bit of a breath and there's a bit of a excuse me range from, you know, over the years of life as well well, you've been around the magic scene for a very, very long time.
Speaker 1:I remember um in my younger years knowing about you and knowing about your magic, so you've created an awful lot of magic over the years yeah, I think it's a weird one in that like I think a bit like you know, like craig petty, sort of went away for a bit and then came back, like I feel like I'm, I've, it's funny, we're both some similar things for different reasons. So in my case I was, yes, I've, I've always been into magic. It's not like I've stopped doing it, but I've often been um, like yourself and like many other people. I've often sort of juggled it with other jobs and other things. So, um, I've also been into um like creative advertising, which is a copywriter.
Speaker 1:So I've kind of done those in concert over the years and then, yeah exactly, had my, had the books, plot thickens, plot twist, that kind of thing came out. Then, you know, pause to have kids and also do Edinburgh shows and that kind of thing, and then had more recently, yeah, exactly, and then sort of thing. And then had more recently, yeah, exactly, and then sort of more recently, gone freelance again and and finally had some more time to get back into it. Hence, you know, the book, effervescence, all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So yeah, exactly, I mean it's weird.
Speaker 1:I sort of been around a while, but it's still a bit of a basket of secret because I, because there was a bit in between boy will tell you it's never. It's really not thinking so on a good day it's thinking. It's often thinking about magic.
Speaker 3:So, um, yeah, exactly, it's always bubbling away in the background and I love that some of your tricks, including the jar trick, because hopefully you'll give the story that you gave as to how you discovered the method of that, because I thought that was quite interesting um, but do your tricks often come from a scientific angle? Is that sort of how your brain functions to create magic interesting?
Speaker 1:so not necessarily always science, but definitely it's weird. I tend to start. I'm very big fan of inspiration from outside, magic, um, I think simon craves you know another really creative guy, I think he said that in a blog, but he has a similar thing. So a lot of my tricks most of my tricks, certainly until recently, historically go from what's an interesting idea in the world or what's a you know good, you know concept or a whatever. If it's you know time travel. Or if it's, um, you know some psychological, um, synesthesia or whatever, like what's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1:And then you go a bit like people, you know magicians doing pound stores, sometimes with an object, you go, oh, oh, there's got to be a trick in that, like I just do that with the world. So I don't, I don't. I think some magicians have a very clear boundary between this is the magic world, this is what I love. You know, it's cards, it's esp cards, it's it's whatever. And I've always gone and plot. That's the other thing. And the sense of my books is I've gone, here's some interesting things out in the world, how can we combine them with magic? Or how can we use magic to simulate them? And then, method-wise, I kind of do both, so I think one.
Speaker 1:If there's an existing method that kind of works and is a great workhorse method, then I there's an existing method that kind of works and is a great workhorse method. Um, then I will use that because it works and it's brilliant.
Speaker 2:You know like what like you do with your some of your releases.
Speaker 1:You know if there's a classic timeless method that you just know works, I don't know, out out to lunch or whatever that has been around for. You know, classic force, whatever, like there's been around for years and it will solve the problem and I'll use that. I won't invent method for the sake of method. Very often, which I think you know, magicians are very, very into methods, as we know. But it does mean the flip side of that is you've got this, you know, we've got this vast toolbox from hundreds of years of methods that you can apply to loads of things outside of magic. So sort of, yeah, presentation-wise I'm very into and plot-wise I'm into. So, yeah, often it'll, it'll, it'll be wherever the method comes. And sometimes, yeah, especially if it's cards, you've got a whole toolbox. If you've got a trick of the jar of pasta sauce, there's there's not as many.
Speaker 2:Uh, there's not many in there. You know you go to the country archive.
Speaker 1:Maybe you don't get so many coming up, so you have to kind of go a bit more lateral. But I, yeah, I really like that combination. I think also it's better like lay non-magicians, lay people like. They don't often think that way as well. I think that's the other thing they're very into, which is something I cover in my book.
Speaker 1:One of the topics is objects. You know do the trick with the sponge balls, so I think it can be quite deceptive as well, because you go well, here's a card trick method but let's apply it to I don't know, let's apply it to a packet of crisps or let's apply it to photos. And as a magician, sometimes we go oh yeah, it's just a card trick, it's just, it's just a cosmetic change. You know, you'll just change the object, but to an audience member it's, it's not, it's not that anymore. And I'm not, I'm not the first, I think, mike, I was listening to a lecture by Michaelael huot.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but he was saying same thing like with the. You know, he does trick with socks and it uses cards, but it's not a card trick, it's a sock trick that happens to use some cards. So I think that's the other upside of of mixing and reapplying methods in different ways, is that often it helps audiences um make it more deceptive for audience, because, because they're not used to thinking across different objects, they assume that a card trick has a card method and crisps has other methods.
Speaker 3:A crisp method.
Speaker 1:A crisp method. Yeah, exactly, they're all from all the experts at the crisp table. Yeah, it's a very niche publication.
Speaker 3:So maybe that's a lovely appetizer. So that gives us a good insight as to where we're going to go. Now, if this is your first time listening, the idea is that we are about to maroon Oliver on his own island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks, one book and one non-magic item that he uses for magic, maybe a jar or a packet of crisps? Who knows the particulars? Who's there? What's there? We do not mind us. Who's there, what's there? We do not mind. This is all in oliver's own imagination.
Speaker 1:uh, with that being, said, let's find out what you put in your first position. Okay, so my first position, though I've got a whole range here and some of them are probably a bit more offbeat than others, but then actually a lot of them you can use in different ways. So this is probably one that may well have come up before and it is a classic, but uh, it is gemini twins by carl foolves orools I'm never sure how to pronounce his surname and for the people who don't know, the basic method is you deal through the cards. You take two cards out as sort of predictions. You deal through very cleanly.
Speaker 1:The spectator says or participant, sorry, says stop. You put the first card in face up, drop the rest on top. You go through again. You deal. They say stop. You put the second card in face up, drop the rest on top. You go through again. You deal. They say stop. You put the second card in, put it face up on top, drop the pack on. You spread out a pack and you take out the face up cards and the cards next to them and, lo and behold, they are the mates of the card, or however you want to take it. And I know Andy Nyman you had on. I know he mentioned his love of the kick, and, and you know, and, and and still still available from.
Speaker 2:Came on my magic my side of the place, but he just did method.
Speaker 1:It's, it's just, it's great.
Speaker 1:And the reason why I picked this is because, uh, it was caught sort of the first, first real trick that really got me properly into magic, where the bug um, the bug bit and it was, um, yeah, more self-working card tricks. I think I got it one christmas and I remember reading through and I think it was maybe the first trick in the book or certainly early on. And what was fun is because, you know, they're quite short write-ups in there and I don't think it said how it worked. I think it said just follow these steps. So I put the, you know, I set things up and I dealt them through and I put the cards in and it's such a clever, subtle method anyway, then and then, and then it said spread them out and turn them over and they will match. And I kind of knew how one of them matched. But when the second one matched I was like how like it was. It was that true moment of impossibility for yourself as a magician, which you don't get very much, where you're just like but but how? And that was really fun in a way, I think, because it starts training your brain, because you're not just spoon-fed the answers. I was like, well, how, especially the second card, because it is really clever, you know. Like how, how is this? You know reverse engineering, how is this actually coming about? So I just thought that was, that was fascinating. And then from there I got pulled into it and then I think I ended up getting, um, paul Daniel's adult magic was the other with the other book I got I'm showing my age from the Adult Magic was the other book I got. I'm showing my age in the whatever, it was 90s or something. And then at the back of there it had a list of magic shops and one of them was Davenport. And so I went to Davenport and discovered that, which comes on to my next one.
Speaker 1:But first, just to finish off on Gemini Twins, yeah, I just think it's such a, it's one of those tricks where I know Ben Earl said somewhere that if he wished he'd created the crosscut force and it's that similar thing. Like it's such a beginner's trick, and so you go, oh yeah, okay, fine. But then the more you think about it or the more you create your own stuff and sometimes you end up with these really messy, labyrinthine methods, awkward, um, you know, compromise somewhere along the way, uh, with with materials or how direct it is, and it's just so clean. It's ridiculous and you can, and you can vary it. You know um, you know leon monte has got some great tricks with it, like various versions he's done.
Speaker 1:Uh, you know, you can just do it with one card doesn't need to be cards, you know photos, whatever. It's just like the and the method is quite it's. It's definitely more the sort of psychological subtlety rather than hardcore slate of hammers. So that was really interesting early on to be like Ooh, and one of those things that you have to keep reminding yourself as a magician, where you just go, you have to always jump back to sort of not knowing that thing, where you know, when you know how it's done, you go surely that won't fly. Surely surely they won't realize that it's actually just that instead of that whatever. And then you do it and you go, no, and it's just, it's, it's. You know it's so strong and yeah, so I just that was, that was. That was the first, that was the first real thing that hit me hard and then I swore a whole bunch of things and then more recently I've come back to, you know, rediscovering the joys of card magic, so it's funny how things go full circle well, that's the.
Speaker 3:The thing with that method as well is it can be done with a normal deck of cards, or you can add in a blank deck and then you have another one and then, as as you mentioned, you've got um the kick, the casino kick. You can do it with photos, with train tickets, if you've. There's just so much that you can do, but each time it feels like an entirely different trick, even though you know technically it's a systematic process that just sort of happens, but it's just a phenomenal effect each time and it feels totally different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's such a good way. I was interesting, I was Craig Pesky was interviewing me and he was asking what was like. You know, people go. How do you become more creative in magic? And it can be daunting if you haven't done before and it's hard to know where to start. You know, I think sometimes feel people feel like they have to leap into some really complex you know, young, fresh, like like some or whatever. They have to create, some like epic, you know, like fizzing thing.
Speaker 1:But as a starting point tricks like that are brilliant because, like you say, it's this, so there's so much flexibility there and you know the method is rock solid. You can also, you know, so you can do it. You know, split them in half out of John G and you've got four selections. Like you can do it with just one selection. You can do like the cards going in stay face up, so there could even be something on the back of there. Like you say, it's really reliable. So I think that's a good starting point to just go pick not quite any template but almost any subject in the world and almost any object that is sort of vaguely flat and you can deal and you just go and you've got, you know, you've got a trick that you know is great, you know, and or you know, you believe in blank and write things on and you can write anything in the world on there. So it's just, it's one of those really good things to go that I think often in magic. It's one of those really good things to go that I think often in magic I was going to mention this later, but I think it's a good point is, sometimes people feel like every trick is one trick and we do have.
Speaker 1:You know. There are some like I don't know shuffleboard or something like that. They're just so good and so, or some of John Bannon's creations they're so elegant and cunning that you just they feel like that is the trick or people's signature routine and that is the only way they can be, but without going too multiverse on it, like there's. Most tricks are many tricks like within, you know within, or can be, you know the, you get one flavor and I think that's weird.
Speaker 1:Imagine is that we don't. We don't always vary. Sometimes we do, you know, but every trick you can go oh, actually can you, and I think from being in advertising and brainstorming different concepts for ads and stuff like that is really showing my brain to go okay, here's the concept. Then you go what are, what are? 10 ways you can vary it, like you say. You know, like, vary the object, vary the when, how they're saying stop, vary the reveals, vary the number of choices. You know, just go every, almost every trick, not all of them, but almost every one. You can still push and twist it into five, six different things. So I think creativity doesn't have to be as daunting as it needs to be.
Speaker 3:Well, it's a great first choice and it leads us nicely because you've sort of teased it into a number two. So what did you put in your second position?
Speaker 1:So number two I know I seem to be mentioning Andy and I a lot, but he's brilliant so I was torn here between two. So number two I know I seem to be mentioning Andy Nibble a lot, but you know he's brilliant is. So I considered I was torn here between two so I was considered. These are both tricks that I saw demmed when I went into Davenport and I considered Rainbow Cascade by Royal Waltham because it's a classic and also it's interesting pre. You know I know John Bannon's, you know, sort of popularized the fractal examinable packet tricks at the end and that's examinable, yeah you know, and that's, that's an old trick but actually it's examinable at the end.
Speaker 1:Um, so it was almost that, but I went for killer elite instead because, a, I thought it'd be a bit more different. So it's not just card tricks, um, and I should say this was demed for me by paul henry, um, who's, who's a lovely guy and he's sort of like he's, he's brilliant and probably not as well known among magicians as he could be, but he's, he's, he's lovely and, um, he and a brilliant demo. Like he doesn't he, you know, he, he does excellent things in the same in in different way. Um, uh, but he was, you know, back in the day he was, he was, he was brilliant. It was him and oliver um table to ball, who, uh, davenport's.
Speaker 1:When I was, you know, back when I was a 16 year old, whatever it was, and it was really nice because he was always he was, he was always deming stuff and that was one of the. That was one of the tricks he demmed and I didn't actually own it. I think I was buying other stuff. I was always. I didn't have a load of money, so I was just sort of like buying what I could. I think, a bit like you know, sometimes there this mythical state. So I think it was the same thing, because with that I never, because I never owned it myself. I always loved watching him perform it. So I've got nice memories of that because I'm shaking my nose, yeah, because of.
Speaker 1:He then invited me to the Demon Club this Paul Henry, sorry and that's where I met a whole bunch of other magicians. So I've made a little like list. So, yeah, the people that I mentioned then angelo carbone, um wayne, trice john allen, james pritchard, like lots more too. So it was. It was really nice hub of of young magicians. It was the first sort of like sort of magic magic group or gang that I was part of. So it was, it was. It was like that that really went from. You know, when you've got that sort of slight interest like the young magicians club now going from that sort of interest into the fourth loan, right, that's it for life now now you're in, there's no, you know there's no, there's no way back.
Speaker 1:You just, you just, are fully in magic. Now, um, and I think sorry I should sum up the trick for people who don't know um, so, killer elite is, you have, um, four postcards. Uh, I know alakazam put out a version as well, um, more recently, so I believe, um, so you have four postcards of famous, um, uh, movie movie killers. So I can't remember the full characters. You probably don't want to be, but it was. Uh, I know there was taxi driver on there and I think, um reservoir dogs. I was gonna say yeah, and two others, and they pick really clearly, and you tell a story which is like you know, like where you talk about, how you know they all, they all meet up and it's. You know the tensions arise and you know guns shoot, shoot out and only one person you know is left standing, uh, and then they, the audience member, decide and they win. Sorry, they win the casino chip, that's it.
Speaker 3:So you take them out on a blow and then they go who?
Speaker 1:who won this, this, you know, priceless casino chip. And the audience member says and then you reveal in a very cool way who you know, that you knew in advance who it was and whatever happens, the ending's really cool and I just thought it was such a good, such an interesting trick. A, because these are all sort of of, and what did I learn from this? So the as well as being a nice memory, so I think it really helped me realize early on that the, the power of a simple method when it's combined with a really strong um presentation, um, you know, which is like like you do with your bizarre stuff, often like like how much you can, how much in the imagination you can conjure, because I remember them saying oh imagine this is from and, and you know it's not just four postcards. And they go you know, one, two, three, four point to one. Oh, look, you pick the number three and here on the back it says you will choose this one.
Speaker 1:Like you know, like it, it it was so much more atmospheric and all the rest of it and that was a really good lesson, I think, in terms of um and also, not without saying, the method, like in some ways a classic method but brilliantly applied, or a sort of tried and tested method, brilliantly applied and also just going. Okay, this doesn't have to be the latest. You know gadgetry, you know, feel like you're in a bondo vq, like whatever, like you can use some really smart methods that other people might just go. Oh yeah, it's just that method like and discount it to do something really interesting and atmospheric.
Speaker 1:And also, I've just got nice memories from um, you know, time, times, times, going into town and wandering around. It was also nice when I, when I read the uh warlock effect and uh, it was fun because a lot of that set around charing cross and so we would often go there at a weekend and we'd share magic and then we'd sort of go into uh, go into the charing cross hotel and try not get chucked out of their bar, you know, sip a coke that an overpriced coke, you know and do magic tricks and play around there. So, um, yeah, really good memories and it's just, it's a cracking trick yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:It's a phenomenal trick. It was one of the ones that when I first started gigging, I had Killer Elite Pro, which was the one with like a small leather wallet, and I still have it, but it's completely worn out. The writing on the back is worn off. The plastic inside is broken where I used it quite a lot and it was the first time that really got me into storytelling magic as well.
Speaker 3:That makes sense. It's a lovely story that you can tell, with it the idea of these guys sitting down for a card game. Um, things get a little bit heated, they pull out their weapons and one of them survives because this poker chip in their pocket repels the bullet, which is a lovely idea anyway. And that was the time where, um, I don't know if you remember, niman brought out like, uh, the hidden dice man, killer, elite.
Speaker 1:I remember, dice man as well yeah, exactly, brilliant. Yeah, just this hit like bang bang.
Speaker 3:Excuse me, pardon me, but yeah, exactly, just just like excellent trick after excellent trick, yeah but they were all really strong methods that were so falling and I would say that killer elite probably started the precedence for that sort of routine. It's the one that really coined the structure of that kind of trick four things, maybe one or two other objects if needed and there's been so many versions of it since, but they all follow the killer Elite system. I would argue yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think also going back to, like you were saying, the tricks you develop, and also going back to even those Killer Elite in terms of outside inspiration, it's that thing again, you just go. It's not that magic isn't interesting, it is, it's fascinating. Look at Joshua J's how Magicians Think there's loads of magic. That is fascinating. But you just go, in the same way that you know not all songs are about this is the verse and now it's the chorus. You know like, or you know or like. Or you get occasional hollywood movies that are about hollywood movies, you know, but most of the time they're a movie that are about something else. So it's the same thing. You know dice man cool. You know, inspired by the book and but its own really cool method in its own right, and then obviously the evolution of that with sort of uh, tom stone's fun take on it. You know um, and then, yeah, exactly and the same with killer elite. You know you've got this whole atmospheric thing.
Speaker 1:It just feels like, yeah, to me it feels like you like, in the same way, that comedy. You go, you can have a comedy special. It could be especially at the edinburgh fringe. It can be about any topic in the world and you can do a comedy show about it, and you know magic is hopefully moving that way. It just feels to me like the same thing. With magic you should be able to have almost any topic of the world, like room plans, you know barn loss, you know childless, you know show like that, like you should be able to have any topic in the world and then go now I will explore this through magic or, you know, not in a whole concept show necessarily, just even if it was one trick, but you just go. So many interesting things in the world, why not, why not use all of them as starting points?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and both great choices so far. So we've got Gemini Twins and Killer Elite, so that brings us to number three. So what's in your third position?
Speaker 1:So number three. So now we sort of flash forward a little bit of time to me going to uni. Uni, so I, uh, yeah, so I, I, I went to a comprehensive school but I was, you know, smart and obviously fortunate. And I uh, went to you know, apply, to oxford and was lucky to get in, um, and it's funny on that note. So magic helped me get in, which is fun.
Speaker 1:So in the run-up to it, you know like my school was very supportive. But you know, school sometimes they they're, they're, you know, they're more sort of academic conventional. And so beforehand they did say, oh well, you know, I was writing my you know application. They said, oh, it's all good, but I'm not not sure whether you should mention the magic, you know, because it's not, it's not, you know, it's not a proper academic subject, you know, maybe stick to that law. And I was like, yeah, but it's. I was thinking even back then, this is for gustav kuhn did all his amazing work on it, you know. Um, obviously, yeah, but there's still plenty of psychology and magic going on here, you know. It's just a different flavor coming from a different approach. So I thought, you know, I'm gonna mention it anyway.
Speaker 1:And then I got to the interview and it was really because I was saying and, and he, he basically said in words and he was like, yeah, well, you know whatever I've got. You know I've got 20 people here. You know they've all got. You know they've all got a's, they've all done. You know whatever they are, you know prefix, and blah, blah, blah, like you know what. And then look down it and then went but what's my? Tell me about magic. And so they went. You know how does? How does magic psychology fit in? And then we ended up having I don't know about about two-thirds of the thing was just talking about magic and how you know psychology and how that might work or what the underpinnings are, how it might overlap. Because you know, like anyone else is, that you know it's your 15th interview of the day and you're looking for something a bit different. You go, oh, that'd be nice. And then that was. I mean, it wasn't the only thing, but it definitely helped. So I was like, well, there we go, you know. So that's, that's a good thing. You know, tell you any anyone listening who's young. You know, tell your parents that, yeah, go, like, keep doing magic and you can get into a good university. So yeah, so, so, anyway.
Speaker 1:But when I was at uni I they had you know like balls where you you know like like sort of disco events with music and you know like bouncy castles and whatever else, and you know like students go along and stuff and anyone who had some skill like juggling or magic or whatever went, oh, you can get a free ticket. You know did that, whatever, and you maybe get a little bit of money. So I, I signed up to do that and I was entertaining the queue while they were waiting to come in. So it was my first real experience of sort of like back-to-back, close-up magic of going up to people. And I remember standing on the opposite side of the road before I had to do it and I'm I'm quite introvert when I'm off stage. So I was like come on, you can do this. You know that that approach before you welcome go hi, um, and uh, yeah. And so jay sankey, who's obviously massively creative, holy moly was one of the tricks I did for that and for people don't know the trick, um, so it's again, it's just a brilliant trick. Um, you may, may know key master, which is obviously like craig petty, sort of similar like moving hole, but he applies it to a key. So before this was before that, um, I get also a brilliant trick. Um, okay, so for those, uh, if you don't know, so holy moly.
Speaker 1:Uh, you have, um, two metal washers like you might get from ikea or whatever uh, or a plumber use and then, uh, you have hold on to one of them and, um, you hand another one to the audience member to hold in their hand. Um, then you reach over and you pull the hole off your washer, so it's now got no hole. You seem to drop that or rub it into her hand. Then when they open their hands, they have two. Then you reach over and you pull the hole off your washer, so it's now got no hole. You seem to drop that or rub it into a hand. Then, when they open their hands, they have two holes in their washer and everything can be examined.
Speaker 1:The reason I think it's such a good trick is it's, you know, it's really engaging. There's something about metal that obviously is even harder than card to move around. Moving a hole is a weird thing, but it's still quite visual, it's fast, happens in a hand, and the other thing I think is really smart is that it feels like the kind of thing that you might suspect and audiences members do, they can see might be some weird like mechanical thing with, with some really, really complex mechanism going on and actually it without saying what the method is is not that it's much simpler and neater than that, but I think that's a really smart method construction.
Speaker 1:And I want to say I'm not sure if this is correct, but I want to say that it was Darmanautis, maybe, who talked about how audience members, when they're thinking for a solution it's a bit like this sort of thing looking in a garden or a walled garden that'll be and the idea is a magician is you sort of put up these um perceptual walls where they where of, where they're going to sort of search for a method, and then you try and put the method on the other side of that wall. So I don't know if that was autism, but yeah, I always, I've always stuck with me as an interesting um way of looking at creativity, because the same thing with the mess. I think that's why it's so falling, as long as your brain or, if they're asking the wrong question, as long as their brain is going, what is the mechanism? How does this mechanism work? They're never going to find the true method. So I think it was just really smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did that. And then I did a weird trick with, uh, one of those sort of like fake plastic eyes. I sort of pretended to pop my eyeball out as a, as an opener, and then very obviously very serious magician even back then you know, not silly at all uh and uh. Then I do, uh, holy moly, and then I'd finish with, um, uh, jeff mcbride's kundalini love rising, and that was my set. And then I'd rinse and repeat that you know 20 times, going down the line um, so yeah, so that's my, that's my. And also because you know, jay sankey's just just amazingly creative and prolific, so I've hoovered up a lot of his stuff over the years because it's just, it's just so good yeah, it's a great trick and I I know that you mentioned key master, but I think before key master, the version I never owned, holy moly.
Speaker 3:I remember going to new york when I was younger and there's a magic shop in time, well, just off of times square but, when I was in there they had a key deposit which was a version of Holy Moly that Jay Sankey also brought out where the hole goes onto the key. So a very early remnants of Keymaster.
Speaker 3:Ah, that's interesting how things evolve, but it sort of had the tag, so you would have the key. You took the key off of the key chain and handed it to them, and then you had the key tag and then you would wave the tag, the hole would disappear and then when they opened up, there were two holes on the key oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:That's ringing a dim bell now you mentioned that. I forgot there was a version like that as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and it's such a clever trick. But what what's lovely is I can imagine you mentioned about sort of not being serious and being a bit silly what I think is interesting there is even now because I'm guaranteeing there's very few magicians that perform that effect now in working sets but what a different, strange, unique thing to do to take a whole lot of one thing and make it appear on something else in their hand. I think it's such a great trick that's probably been overlooked in recent years. I think a lot of people should check out really. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, exactly like I don't like, I think I think like, if I didn't own that, I would own, you know, keymask or whatever it's, just because I happen to already be doing that one, but it's like that's really nice as well. Or the, the thank you, you know, because it's it's so organic and it makes sense that there would be a hole in it and stuff. But I just, um, yeah, it's just, it's just weird, but in a good way, like you say, and also, I think, the. In the same way that you go what's the, what's the impossible thing, and then how can you make that most impossible? In the same way that you know, like in a like traditionally copper field, you go you know what, what, what you know advancing, vanishing something, what's the most impressive thing to vanish? You know something, massive statue of liberty, whatever it's similar, similar thing with that, where you're going, moving a hole is weird anyway, like you say, and interesting and different, and um, but doing it, how do you make it much harder, even though you know it might not actually be harder?
Speaker 1:Method wise, doing it in a piece of metal seems is, is feels logically harder than doing it in card, and also it's got that nice cartoon logic thing which I love. I love a bit of, not even not necessarily a cartoon style, but that warps logic, where you just go, oh well, obviously you pull that off there and pull. You know, we've all seen that in in cartoons growing up. So I think he's got something nice back there, yeah, and he just feels immediately. I like stuff that immediately feels same with car tricks where, even if you're just tearing them or even if you're just doing something where you just go what, oh, this is, you know, like in a film. When you're watching a film and then it suddenly takes a left turn, you're like, oh, this is new, where are we going now? Like I also still being punchy, because I think when I was younger I struggled sometimes with that, I think when I was creating early on. I still have.
Speaker 1:This is sometimes I do something that was really interesting and ran I'm out there, but it wasn't necessarily that punchy or you'd have to spend a lot of time explaining the backstory of it. You know, um, you know from bizarre magic sometimes, like you don't, you want to keep things moving. You know you want to set the scene, but you don't always necessarily want to spend 10 minutes telling a elaborate story. You want to do Still, keep it tight. So I think that's really nice. You can do it. You know the whole trick with the whole. You know you can do it almost silently and it feels really quirky, but it's still punchy, which is which is not always doable. So, yeah, great trick for several reasons.
Speaker 3:Well, I think one of the nicest compliments we can get from a lay audience is I've never seen magic like that, because that makes it feel like a unique experience that they've never had before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, because even with fool us and stuff like that, like I think we, we know a lot about it. But maybe you know, even I as a magician, I haven't seen all the episodes. You know, like I've seen, you know I've seen a few and I've seen bits that pop up. But it's like you know, people will have seen more magic. There's still plenty people haven't seen much or if they have, it's still a lot of. You know, pick a card, sorry, someone in half. You know, like the cliches are still all there. So, like you say, it's so nice when they notice that for you, because if you, if you, if you do care about being creative, because you get the flip side sometimes.
Speaker 1:You know, I remember doing some, um, like a showcase thing and uh, and I did, I did some. It was quite highly conceptual, quite complex, probably in retrospect, but it was sort of a version of a sneak thief kind of presentation, so, and it was fun, but I was trying to do an improv thing with it and it was good, but it was okay. You know it was, it was very creative, but it was. I mean, it was still a work in progress, it was a little bit bit out of that. And then the people after me were some musicians and they did the Vanishing Bandana and it just stormed the place and everyone was like, oh. They were like, yeah, I enjoyed your show, but oh, that bandana thing. Those guys, it was just a little part, well, not even a little part, a big part of me died inside. And you were like like, come on, come on, there's like zero originality going on there. So, yeah, exactly so when when you get an audience, that member that really appreciate, or they go, oh, or you get even when you go.
Speaker 1:Oh, I never really liked standard magic, but that was really interesting or that was well. Or you know, like like devon shows, whatever doesn't feel like magic. Or you know like a very good, bizarre piece. Or like I remember you saying with the restaurant and you know, somebody times, people are hearing voices. We used to go, that's, that's not, that's not the kind of thing I know. You know exactly same reason I do. You know pasta sauce job, because you just go with pasta sauce, what, like I remember backstage once I used to do um, lovely, uh, katya, organize it uh, in uh magic night in madden jojo's? Uh, and I used to um do stage sets there years back and and I remember one night I had my you know collection of random you know whatever Pringles, tube and other bits and bobs, whatever you know random objects I was playing with and Piff was on the same night, john Vennifer, and he was like what are you doing?
Speaker 2:And I was like oh, but I took it as a kind of compliment, because I was like. Well, this is great.
Speaker 1:There's someone dressed in a dragon suit going. Oh, that's a bit out there?
Speaker 2:What are you doing?
Speaker 1:there, so I was like, there we go. This is obviously a good sign I'm doing something different.
Speaker 3:Great, I can imagine some of the weird stuff he had in his case at that point as well.
Speaker 1:Well, exactly, you know exactly. I didn't have a dog in there, so gone and see wonderful things again, also by being different. So it's, it's. You know it's so nice that when magicians are different and anything, any, any tricks, you know that can get you a little bit out there or get like you say people go oh, I haven't seen something like that before. That's, that's got to be a good thing great.
Speaker 3:Well, that leads us on to number four. So what's in your fourth position?
Speaker 1:okay. So number four is, uh, again jumpy forward. So this is uh, this is number four is the hydrostatic glass and I am ashamed to say I don't know who invented it. I got mine from um davenport's. Um, they had a, they had a set there with the sort of you know, like instructions and a glass, um, and the secret something, and uh, and it's one of those again, it's one of those beginners tricks that people go, oh, yeah, yeah, okay, do that, and then they forget about it.
Speaker 1:But I remember reading and hearing Alan Shaxson used to also include it and a bit like Billy McComb, a bit like people like that, people who have been there done that in front of the audiences for years and years and years, and you just go oh, that's interesting. You know, when people, something that that they know plays for a reason, you go. I think maybe there's got to be something in that, and so I think that's the other thing. It's always good to try tricks out in front of an audience because you just don't. You know, like jokes with a comedian, you just don't know how they'll play, and you get, you know, you get the reverse, you get some tricks. You just go oh, this is so ingenious, it's so clever.
Speaker 1:You show the audience, you know, like some not all, but some like any card, any number or whatever, it is multi-phase, whatever. And then sometimes they're just like, oh, yeah, yeah. And then you show something else that you just go, oh, it's just uh, it's just a whatever, it is just beginner's trick. And then I, so I did that. Yes, I was doing a trick. Uh, this is when I was doing edinburgh. So I was preparing for my first edinburgh fringe show, um, and I was doing uh, one about time travel. And it's funny, I actually met Morgan West there when we were both flyering on the same road, like a little bit up from each other. So you know, by the whatever, by the third day you're flyering in there next to each other, you get chatting, and I realized they'd come up also with a show called Time Traveling Magicians. So it's a funny like get great minds and all that.
Speaker 1:So I was doing a show called Time Warper which was sort of had a story in it. I had like, as per me, I had lots of stuff going on and then one of the things was about, um, pausing time, um, and so I would do the. I would do the sorry hydrostatic glass, in case you don't know. As you can tell, my brain hops around a lot. Um, is you? You have a glass that you pour some water into the glass. You cover it with a coaster or a postcard, something like that, something. You think you turn it over and then you let go and are you sorry, if you wet the wet the coaster, then it sort of clings on and you go, you know which is as it would from sort of science, and then you pull the coaster away and then there's nothing there, seemingly, but the water doesn't fall out and then when you want, you can have the water drop into a bucket play.
Speaker 1:Um, so I would do that with a monologue and it just worked really nicely. So I'd fill it up and then I'd hold it up and then I would just hold it above my head because I didn't like the. I always like. If there's going to be jeopardy, I feel like it should be on me. I don't feel like it should be in the audio. I don't. I'm not a fan of the hands, the smash and stab for that. Really. I don't want to spike someone else's hand, like I've chosen to do this show, so it's the same thing about that. I didn't, I didn't want to like worry about getting someone else wet, but I was then also. It was just really fun.
Speaker 1:So I do a sort of short, um short monologue about if you could pause time, would you, and what would be the benefits, but then what would be the downside. So maybe, you know, maybe we shouldn't pause time, um, but without being too too deep, like without being too pretentious, but it was just really fun because you could talk about this thing, but just while holding a full glass of water above your head. And it was just really intriguing because, you know, I suppose, like the, is it Hitchcock? The people having dinner with the bomb hidden behind the table, like that concept is that sort of. You know, it could be a bit philosophical and a bit whatever, but it just added a little bit of an element of danger and I think, um, I go, I, I asked on the magic circle forum because I couldn't remember who said it and I think someone helpfully said it was um, bob reed, uh, who said that you should try and do tricks with I hope I've got that right um, gary jones then told me it was him.
Speaker 1:I think, uh, that with glass, water, fire and money, because glass is fragile, and then you know fire is dangerous and water is hard to manipulate.
Speaker 1:And money, you know people, people want to have more money, so it ticks the box and that and that it's got the glass and it's got the water.
Speaker 1:And doing tricks with water is it is generally, you know, if anyone's done it, it does, it does add a certain something. Because it is, it is harder to manipulate. So, um, yeah, it's a really good trick and one of those, like you've got really good response, like more than you think you go oh yeah, I'm just gonna, and then you try it and like people, like what, and also, which is fun, if you, depending on how you dip things, whatever, if it gets wet in a certain way, you can you get a little drip coming off the, which is really fun. So while I'm talking, you get a little. You know, if you sort of douse the, douse the coaster and then stick it on as you're talking, it's literally dripping on your head, like a couple of times, which really helps sell the illusion. So, yeah, great trick, surprisingly good trick, and it added a different flavour within the show as well. It wasn't all interaction or a look at me.
Speaker 3:It was allowing me to do a sort of monologue-y bit, so yeah, yeah, I love the hydrostatic glass, but I do always recall Paul Zenon performing it I think it was on Tricky Christmas and it goes slightly awry and that man gets drenched and then Paul gets a lovely glass over him, which I always loved. But what I really enjoy about what you just said there was that the concept that you put behind it of time stopping still and you're just holding the glass there. I think that's a really nice thing and getting the audience to think you know what are the advantages of time stopping. What would you do during that time? Because it becomes so much more than just a trick.
Speaker 3:And I always remember, in and of itself, the derrick delgadio show where he has that the section with the brick in a window and he's sat next to it and you see it for just a brick until he tells this story and the entire meaning of that brick. It becomes something entirely different. It almost becomes like a weapon or I don't know. And that's what that story for me does with the glass. That moment, with you contextualizing it, with you know, time stopping, it becomes something so much more than just a glass and water at that.
Speaker 1:At that point, yeah, and I think I think there's a lot of space for that. I think also you can do things with a light touch as well, so you can do that. You know it wasn't, I didn't. You know the whole thing was. I don't know what it was. You you know maybe a minute and a half, two minutes long, if that you know like you don't need, and especially if you've got a really simple trick, like I think it's harder sometimes if you're doing to do a really interactive gambling demonstration or something and then you're also trying to layer on. Actually this is all about the chance we, but the more, the more complex the idea you're laying on top, the simpler the trick that goes along when it needs to be. But on a really basic level I think you can. Yeah, I think you know like, like I think I think sometimes we think in in, you know just two binary options in magic.
Speaker 1:We go oh, either you just say you know, I don't know six odd either you go two ropes or time together, oh, and blow, and now they, they become one again, or it's this you know people picture it as a.
Speaker 1:You know it's a 10 minute.
Speaker 1:Ah well, you know, from the, from my, the mystical, like the world of, you know, and this, this really overloaded thing, but I think, just somewhere in between there's always, there's always bits in between.
Speaker 1:You know, a hint of that is interesting and you know you look at in films, with and it's a slight side point, but you know, with like the important object and they'll have like a necklace or something, or I think in Encanto or something where you know it's to be torn and restored, but it'll be done with a family photo and someone's face will be torn out right or whatever. You just go, it doesn't take a lot sometimes to add, add that layering, um, and to just mix up the style of show, because I think sometimes it's easy as a magician to get into a particular rhythm and I know I do that like. I have another trick where I don't talk in my act, because I know I'm very chat, chat, chat, talk, talk, talk all the time, and also I do, I do, I do so every now and then I'm like I need something to pause and slow that down.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, but I think so Like why not make it about something else or reframe it, because you know, not all the time, but you know, maybe one of the tricks you do, why not?
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Speaker 3:And just looking at your list so far, we've got a deck of cards, postcards, um washers and now a glass of water, which just shows how varied, uh, this is. But let's lead it into number five. So what's in your fifth position?
Speaker 1:okay, so number five continue with me to hop into some mentalism. So, um, but let's lead it into number five. So what's in your fifth position? Okay, so number five, continue with me. We're going to hop into some mentalism. But it's also mentalism about time travel or about psychology, because you know why not?
Speaker 1:So this is, and again, this is a proven method. It's that, again, it's that thing of go, here's your box of tools that 500 years of magicians have created. Here's any premise or presentation you have that you'd like to do, and you know chances are not always. Most of the time you can find something that fits together. So my fifth choice is Wordo, also known as well. It was marketed as Wordo originally, but I'll just sort of describe what the trick is.
Speaker 1:I came across it in Barry Richardson's Theatre of the Mind which excellent books like they. Really. I really like his sort of approachable, warm and sort of mentalism, but it's also very interactive. It's not sort of I am the great strokey beard person, it's very much sort of like oh, isn't this an interesting thing about the mind? So it really appealed. And just method wise, sorry, I should go what it is, and then we'll jump into that. And just method wise, sorry, I should go what it is and then we'll jump into that. So I feature this in two shows to achieve very different plots. So I think it's an interesting one to literally show an example of that.
Speaker 1:So the basic trick is it allows you to say if you're doing, if you've got a book. It allows you to get a book. The audience can name any number, page number they want, or you can flick through and they can stop. You then run your hand down the page, um, with a bookmark, um, or you can do other things, uh, and you say they say stop. Whenever they like you can, they can see there's different words on the page. They say stop. They read out the word that they have stopped on and you know that word and that word can be either you know you can either read the mind, supposedly, or it can be predicted somewhere or whatever. So it's so clean. I think there's so many.
Speaker 1:I love Darren Brown's, you know, since his early books. I loved his concept of invisible compromise, the idea that you have to compromise somewhere because you don't actually have magical powers, but to try and make that compromise invisible to the audience. And I think sometimes you get the other extremes. Obviously this is. This is not everything, but sometimes, with some things like really propless mentalism for instance, you get it's propless, which is great, but then you, it's a very visible compromise and there is a lot of like think of a number between these two and then you're adding that, and then you take away one from that and you add one from that and you're you're you're having a range between 15 and 20, and it all feels very visually or verbally compromised, whereas something like an invisible deck even though, again, it's seen as often dismissed as oh yeah, it's just that you know, like you've got it's. So the compromise is very compromised as a pack, but it's invisible because it seems what you can actually say in terms of their freedom of choice is you go name any card bosh. There it is. And it's invisible because it seems what you can actually say in terms of their freedom of choice is you go name any card bosh. There it is. And it's the same thing with this with the word I force, which I love.
Speaker 1:It's like any page you want, like I've had people go okay, name a page from. I say you know 100 to 200. They name any page. You get that page. You say there's a whole bunch of words on here. Uh, without going to method, you can say I want it to be clear which word we stop on. So you don't even. The nice thing is if you phrase it right, which is a barry richard thing he also explains the version with the paper clip, which I believe is bruce elliott, apparently, who came up with the paper. But the nice thing is you script it right. They don't even know that object's there. So it seems like you're just pointing you like any page at all. You run your finger down, it seems, your hand down. They say stop, that's the word. It's just so fair and you can do it with any book as long as you you know it doesn't take long to make up.
Speaker 1:And then any book you like, um, so I use that same principle, one with a sort of bookmark and one with a pig clip, uh, in two very different tricks. Um, so I did show, yeah, in my time travel show. Uh, I did thing where I'd sort of come out and show some blank boards, uh, a bit like a sort of slate test, but just with um, I can't remember they're called phone boards, like like a3 phone boards. So I come out and I show them, uh, two of them, and then have someone in the audience hold them, clamp them tight, and then I'd have someone else pick a word, uh, any word they like, and then I say, to prove I'm time traveling, I'm gonna travel back in time to earlier today and scribble something on the board. So I'd hold a marker uh, now, I needed some static electricity to get going, so I put some music on and I get everyone else like shuffling around and dancing, uh, which again, big fan of fun. But also it really loosens the audience up, which in britain you know, in america I love it because everyone's up for it from day one. You know, whenever I have an american team when I do a show, it would just be like, you know, whereas the brit sometimes you have to be like come on, come on people, and then people loosen up and get into it, so they boogie around.
Speaker 1:I'd sort of freeze as if I was stuck in time, and then I'd supposedly have traveled. And then they'd say what's the word? And they open up the boards that were blank and then the word had been scribbled on there. So it was a. Really, again, it's a book, you know, it's a book test and it's a. It's a force and a flavor, because I think sometimes you know, I love, I love, I love a good book test, but again, a bit like cups and balls, whatever. Sometimes they start a book test and you go, oh okay, I know where this is going from there. As a magician, you know, I know where this is going for the next eight minutes, you know like. So it's fun, I think, to twist things and it's just really clean. So that was the first version and then in another show later on, I was doing the show called um live brain surgery. Uh, because, yeah, you gotta, you gotta intrigue the intrigue, the punters, and it was sort of inspired by partly inspired by um the man mistook his wife for a hat. So about sort of these extraordinary states of mind that people have, uh, and I think you've seen, yeah, you saw this trick.
Speaker 1:I think I did this for the young magicians, I think. Uh, so it's based on synesthesia, which is where people's senses get blended together, and so in the routine I do, I start with taste. So they taste, if I can get a fresh lemon, they bite into a lemon and they call out whatever color they think of first, so red, green or blue, and I predict that. Or a sweet, which is Liam Montier's suggestion, if I can't get a fresh lemon and then I have them listen to a tune on a music box and then they pick a particular shade of green based on that, and then they've got different names, like paints, and then I reveal that I've got that. So it's very different. So, from an audience member, hopefully.
Speaker 1:You've got one trick where you're sort of picking a word and you're pausing time and then scoring something, and then you've got another show where it's about psychology and you're sort of simulating someone having blended senses together, but the method is the same method. So I think it's just really getting that sense of separating in your head what's the method and then what could the plot be, or presentation be to go with it? Um, because they can be quite different. Um, but again, like I say, but it's nice, nice because it's at the heart of the routine, it's, you know, the compromise is pretty invisible and oh, I should say, if anyone's interested, so we'll see, check out. Clear With the Mind, it's great.
Speaker 1:Also, sanky had a project called Slider with a Y, and he's, you know again. You know again, great brainstorming brain, he's. He comes up obviously with. You know multiple different ways to push it and like loads of different things you can do with it. But yeah, exactly great, great flexible method and again something that doesn't doesn't get used that much, I think, because it's it's a lot of people forget about it or whatever, but just flexibility, like pick any book, pick any page you know, force a word, do with it what you want yeah, I think that's the key there, instead of just having a book or a selection of books.
Speaker 3:It's the freedom. I think that's the payoff there you get a freedom of different books. It feels really organic and fair. I do remember this one because I've got a friend of mine that has synesthesia. So when you brought that up it it sort of rung something in my mind like I wonder where this is going.
Speaker 1:But even that, that's another really lovely concept that maybe the general public don't know, but because there's truth behind it, they can literally go and Google synesthesia, yeah, and I think probably in a similar way with you know, when you talk about you know some part of history that people may not know, or you know Highgate Cemetery or whatever it happens to be Like. Don't know what you know highgate cemetery or whatever it happens to be like there's, I think, it's without, again, without overplaying it, but I just think it's interesting if they come away. You know, on the flip side, if you watch some movie on a streaming service and they've spent millions on it and it's just utterly generic, and you get the reviews, people go, yeah it was fine, but I couldn't remember what it was about two minutes afterwards, or it's just not like it's just the same old stuff. Read, you know, and it's all very good, but it's just not like it's just the same old stuff. Reading, you know, and it's all very good, but it's just there's just nothing to, there's no, there's no sustenance, there's no nourishment, you know, whereas I think, yeah, exactly, give them, you know, maybe don't, unless it's a lecture, don't give them 10 of them, but maybe give them, you know, just give them something interesting to an interesting content.
Speaker 1:If you've got an interesting, it doesn't as long as it doesn't feel too crowbarred together, um, but even if it does like, I'd rather have a crowbar together that says something about something else rather than going. Oh. So I went to the magic shop and he showed me one, two, three, four, five, six cards and I threw away one, two, three cards. And they're one, two, three, four, five. You know, hey, talk to me about synesthesia. You know, they either like the trick or they like the concept. Maybe they like a bit of both. You got three bites of the cherry. So, yeah, exactly, I think, give you know. Uh, when I worked in in creative agencies they'd someone would just like. One of the rules of thumb was say something new. Then it was that you know, or show something new, like it's a basic thing, just yeah they might not know, and it's interesting, you know why not that's the thing.
Speaker 3:I think that we're lucky with being magicians and again, people maybe performers, don't think about this is that we are blessed that we have a narrative and we have the skill. So we have both of those worlds. So if you have a play and people don't like the story, well then you're sort of done. For if you have a musical, I guess you're sort of a bit more blessed because you have the music and the story. So if you like the music, then great, it's okay if the story's a bit rubbish. But if you've got a really good story and the music's a little bit rubbish, then you've got that. But with magician, with magic and magicians, we have a the chance to give them a great story and if they don't like the story they'll love the magic, and vice versa. If they're not a massive fan of magic but they don't mind it, then that's cool. But then you've got a great narrative that at least does something for their imagination.
Speaker 1:That way, yeah, I think that's really interesting. Yeah, exactly, just give them, like you know, more to enjoy. Exactly like you say, like you say you've got and we've all been to see shows like that on the flip side, you know which don't have that where you go.
Speaker 1:Oh well, the songs songs were all right, but the sets are, and the sets were amazing, or whatever or you know at least you've got, if you might, if you're exactly like you say if you're only giving the same thing if you've got you've got like generic presentation without being too no, if you've got generic presentation, you've got um, you know no story you've got I don't know the premise. You know no story you've got I don't know the premise. You know the premise is old hat or whatever and optically engaging, then you've only got the secret. It's that you know that old thing like not that the secret doesn't matter, it does, obviously. But if you like, exactly, if you've got that all that plus a story, plus all the other things, you say you've just got more chances.
Speaker 1:And also, we know audiences are different. You know you get some audiences, get some audiences. You know, if you do a wedding, whenever you go up to different groups, some audiences they're just all about the banter. Some audiences, visual magic, they absolutely love it. Some audiences they want to talk about mind reading or you know, or some tarot type thing. You know they're all into your relationships or whatever like. So if you've just got more, yeah, like or like a meal you know I love food, so you know it's a yeah, exactly. If you've got a taster menu, they're gonna like something. Know, they're all saying something for everything. If it's something for everyone, just have more things, yeah, have more things in there, and then you've got more possible. Yeah, exactly things for them to be interested in.
Speaker 3:Great. So we're going from a mentalism effect into number six, which is Okay, so number six.
Speaker 1:This is funny enough. This is a. This is a card trick, but created by mentalists, so it's a. Um, this is uh. This is b wave or b wave, I don't know, I always pronounce it b wave, I'm not sure. By um, by max maven, uh, or phil goldstein I think I can't remember which, which, the, which name he released it under, but um, again, classic trick and the reason being so. This was so.
Speaker 1:Some magicians, you know, like jeff mcbride I don't know if you did a lecture about magic 24 7, he's always on and you know, and and and from. From my understanding he is and he's amazing and that that really works for him and it's great. I've tried that. But I always feel I'm quite, I'm, I'm a bit all or nothing, I'm quite having a clear um distinction between, like on stage, you know, short bursts, I go, and then, and then I go quiet again. You know, and then I, then I have a cup of tea or whatever and just get, you know, I don't, I don't, I'm not like I don't, I feel like I feel a bit anxious if I'm on every 24 7 or I'm out with you know, out with friends, whatever, and I get the feeling that any moment they might ask me to show me, to show them something, and and so I like to have clear boundaries. So for for me.
Speaker 1:But then, having said that, I went through a stage where I'd never do magic off stage, you know, and then I thought this is a bit silly, especially when I want to do more of it as a crew. I need to have something. So then I realized I need something that I can have that doesn't stress me out but is amazing and will sort of tick that box of show us a trick, and so you don't have to go a full show. So, um, I think it was oliver to bought who suggested this to me. He said, arguing a bay wave is great, it sits in your wallet, you know, and it is great and like, and so I think it's been really useful for that.
Speaker 1:Um, and when I used to do, when we used to do it with my old creative partner, when we used to go to um agencies to sort of show our portfolio and stuff like that, we would also do a um, you know she, she's got outside interest, so she shows something like that, and then I would, I would do a magic trick or I do, I do the hand twist and I do b wave and then, and then that would be enough, like, and then so, yeah, so it's really good for that, practically, um, for people who don't know, so, uh, I mean, it is a classic, but if you don't know, so there's four cards. You say that they're the four queens, I think in my set, uh, and they have to imagine that they remove either. The people run it in different ways, but the way I do, yeah, so you, you, you remove either the black cards or the red cards, and and looks like that, and then of, uh, and then they pick from those one of them to say they end up with the queen of diamonds, and then you spread the four card packet and you show that the queen of diamonds is the only one that's face up. But then you have two more, uh, two kickers, which is nice. Then you, you turn it. Then you say, oh, maybe you think it's sleight of hand, so then you turn it. Then you say, oh, maybe you think it's sleight of hand. So then you turn it around and it's the only one with a red back. The rest are blue and then you show the faces of them and then you show the faces are all blank. So great trick, classic trick.
Speaker 1:I think also what's really good about it, as well as being useful, because it's interesting, I think the thinking is so smart as well. Again, because you've got, without going too much into it, you've got an influence choice, shall we say, but then you've got a very free choice. And so having that two part is so smart because that final choice you, they can change up, you know, do you want to change your mind? They can change their mind, it's so free. And also, for the reveals, it really made me realize that actually he's getting three reveals out of one influence choice, as it were, like one. You know there's one influence choice, as it were, like one. You know there's one choice, as it were, and there's three reveals out of there, like it's just really smart. And also what they sort of they don't really want to examine it either, or it feels like it's really fair, there's nothing to examine, or what they do when examining, isn't they? They can, as it were.
Speaker 1:So I just thought that was really smart and I think, um, obviously, you know seeing things like derren brown, like the ending to enigma, where it's just like reveal, reveal, reveal, reveal, reveal. You know that's become more of a thing, but I've just thought that was really interesting back then and again changing your thinking. So you're going, and the same with which I know neiman andy neiman said in his episode about the um blank deck, the power of the blank deck, to just be unusual. I think that's. I think that's really interesting.
Speaker 1:It's so hard in a way as a magician, because we're so immersed in the world of magic, to sort of step back and go. Well, actually, as a layperson, what are the things that you know? What are the things that will make it more amazing? They're based on the psychology of the spectator rather than it being a more complex technology, technique or whatever. I think that's really interesting. I remember Darren's, was it? I think it was the system or something like that anyway, one way, where he was going through a whole room of polaroid photos and he doesn't get quite so, but I love that it was a lovely routine and they hand out envelopes.
Speaker 1:I can't remember the details, but basically you know they picked, they picked a few pictures and then the you know he guessed the right pictures or their initials, the initial initials the people match their surname initials, I think and then they'd have the envelope that had that person in and then it had a number on the back and you put the numbers together and equal the chance of this thing occurring randomly or something like that. But I was just, I remember just watching it and thinking afterwards, going hang on a minute, like we've got, we've got at least three or four reveals out of the same, you know cause. Then you go oh, and you add that up, and then oh and that, and you go yeah, but actually it's only one influencing of choice there, and then from that you've got boom, boom, boom. You've got multiple reveals and same with the B wave You've got three lovely, you know escalating reveals of one choice that psychologically Wow, cause you could do I know you can do B wave with sort of jokers rather than blank cards. But just blank cards are just just, you know, just, weirder. So that stuck with me.
Speaker 1:So if I'm trying to create something. I'm trying to go. What's a weird? Um, you know what really sticks with people, what they know or don't know. Or you know, like the, the trick with I can't remember the name but the, when you have the spoon and it turns into a fork. Um, that's a great trick. For the same reason, because you know forks, you know spoons, we have them every day, you just go. You could do the same trip with I don't know a wand that turns into a different colored wand, and it wouldn't have the same impact. So I think it's just, yeah, that's really interesting. It's hard to notice them as a magician, but if you ever notice things about normal audience members and you go, well, what, the psychology thing again, but in, not in just in a fooling way, but just go, what, what is important? What do they remember? Or you know, when you pour some milk out of a can of coke, it's like everyone knows a can of coke. That's not what happened. Like what? What's in their head? That would make things more amazing.
Speaker 3:That isn't just down to the technical method yeah, it's sort of like the way that human logic works. I think we can play a lot with human logic, because if an audience sat down and really thought about it then of course they would nearly definitely work them out, certainly with chair tests and other effects like that. But something about the way that things are structured, I think, is what throws an audience off and throws off that logic. And something you said there with B-Wave, which I've never thought about before but is absolutely true, is, if we're going to use equivocate in anything, then allowing that end choice to be a legitimate choice would really throw off the idea of any force or journey that they've been pushed on, so to speak.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah exactly it, just it's just a really nice, and also you can't, I know, depending on how it evolves and I feel like the jerks has also touched on that kind of thinking like I've always tried credit people as much as I can, um, but yeah, it feels like I know that's not always possible um but also like equivocate is great, but also sometimes I feel like it's overused.
Speaker 1:Sometimes when you know, when people go from three books down to one and then do a book test and you go and again. I can't remember. The jokes may have covered this as well, but like you've already got a choice of 50 000 words, like you don't having a having a fudge especially you know, some.
Speaker 1:We all know there's some equivocate which is like amazing, you know, bogus, whatever it's on it. And then there's we've all seen some where it's all a bit now pick up to now, hand it to me. Now, hand it back again. Now, like you just go, is it worth, like to do a three in one thing with some books when you've then got a 50 000 word choice, like, does it really add? So I think, yeah. I think, if you can end, if you can really end with a free choice, um, again it like it's, like you say it's just separating yourself from it and going this is really for all. You know, whatever the method is, or you know not one way, forcing deck, or you know or I have another trick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I'm a trick where I I went through a whole bunch of methods for this thing and then it was about emotions and then I realized I had, you know, um, some sort of emojis on the things and I just found it was. It was that thing where you just go oh, actually one of the best minutes each you show the first four cards to be different and then you go on so on all the way down to and you show the bottom cards different and then all the rest of the pack is the same card and like it's that weird thing, but as it's. You know there's so many more complex, elaborate methods you could use for that. But actually, as an audience member, once you've seen four, you're like oh yeah, yeah, okay, fine, I get the idea. You know it's obviously a different pack and then you know, whereas if you didn't do any of that, they might go. Oh yeah, they're all the same card. But once you, once you get past the four, they go. Oh, yeah, yeah, I've got it now, like you say, like a chair test, whatever, really tapping into what are? What do they care about? What are they not when? What are they going? Oh, hang on a minute, what do they guess? What are the wrong guesses. That's always interesting. You know, like the sleeve, or I forget. You know, when you forget to pull up your sleeves, when you're doing magic and you vanish something, they go. I went up your sleeves and you know, as a magician, like no, it doesn't. I did this really clever thing. It didn't go up the sleeve. But then you go, oh, yeah, but that's that's. That's one of the things they think of. So you've got a it's. I really enjoy that bit of magic.
Speaker 1:In psychology you call it theory of mind, the idea that different people can have different perspectives on the world. But how? You have to sort of constantly. I sometimes say it's like a phone, you know, flip the camera. You have to constantly like, flip your view between like, what do I know? What do they know? What do I know? What do they? What do they not know? What do they not know? What do they suspect? What do I? You know, do that. But it's fun, because when you find one, you go, oh, that's like a chess. You go, can I get away with that? Oh, no, they don't suspect that at all. They suspect we're over here and then you've got a new place to play.
Speaker 3:Well, that leads us nicely into the tail end of your eight.
Speaker 1:So what did you put in your seventh position? Okay, so this one. So, like I say more recently, I've got really back into card magic. Um, I think it's partly because I think I had a break, partly it's all circumstantial, that I just like, before bed, to wind down a bit. I would, I got, I got, um, some you know very prolific john kerry, like I got, I got a whole bunch of his ebooks. So I just each night, I would just, you know, like, learn a trick and uh, and then I just got, just really got back into it and so, from that it's a card thing. But, um, again, I like that adaptability.
Speaker 1:So I was gonna go with invisible deck, just because, again, I use it in a bunch of different ways, but instead I'm gonna go for the snaps deck by dan harlan, david jonathan and designed by phil smith. So, if you don't know, this is the one that's got a bunch of different photos. So it's basically like a photo deck. I know there's been a couple now I know craig's, penny's got a great one as well. Um and uh, it's really smart. So it's, it's a bunch of photos. If you don't know, you can tell which one they choose, uh, and you and also each photo. If you look at it, um, it sort of it also suggests the letter or a number. So you could.
Speaker 1:So it's a wonderful thing that you can do standard tricks, whatever you can do. Any tricks you want to do with, you would do with letter cards or number cards to, you know, force, a name or whatever but and you've, but it's, it's sort of covered anyway, because until you reveal it they just look like photos and then you can go, oh, but actually, and then you get that nice sort of realization where you go, oh, and, and it spells whatever. But I think it's like the. So the I know the thing itself comes with multiple routines anyway, but I just think it's a really flexible. If I was going to do something, it's really, you know I've done. I was doing a thing at a workplace once with and I like predicted the car number plate which was quite fun Like not in a, not that it was a really random, it wasn't like a really catchy, like magic one or whatever.
Speaker 1:It wasn't that, it was just like a random one. But I was like I don't know much about these people but it'd be fun to do something on that. But I know they always park their car there. So I was like I'll do that, but you could just do they. Probably you can do something with that. So I like I like buying tricks, um in in my my book F of F of S and shameless plug they.
Speaker 1:Uh, one of the things I have in there is an essay which was originally on my blog called um, clocks, blocks and clay, and it's the basic idea that there you could sort of categorize magic tricks into three types, depending on how adaptable they are. So clocks is like one of those tricks where either it's highly mechanical or all the presentations printed on the cards or whatever, and and it's it's like this really clever sort of swiss watch and you can't take. Or a 10-year trick, I don't, you can't, you can't really remove many points of it without it all falling apart, but it's this perfectly home thing. And then blocks are your sort of modular routine. So you know ambitious card phases, or ring on string or whatever. You can chop and change and do different bits. And then clay is something like uh, so, like simon lipkin mentioned, like a, like a peak wallet or something like that, where you can, you can pretty much do anything. Or a sneak thief where you can write anything on there, or I don't know, maybe a pack of cards, because you need maybe a pack of cards in in a stack order, or something that you can do almost anything with. So you've got maximum. You can mold it, shape it in any way you want.
Speaker 1:And so it's just that idea that if I'm buying stuff I don't buy. I buy a lot of books because I love books and I buy. If I do buy, I don't buy that many sort of physical tricks, but if I do, I try and aim for them not to be clocks. So there's some great tricks there, but you can only present it the way it's sort of presented, which is fine. But I always want to put my own twist on things.
Speaker 1:So if it is like that, I'll buy it and then I'll remake it with my own props and turn it into you know something else? Um, uh, or there's, or there's. Yeah, so I'll try and buy something that's either blocks and modular that I can then shift or move around, uh, or I'll try and buy something that's a utility tool that you can do almost anything with. So that's why snaps, because I don't know what's going to be on the island, but there will be some people, hopefully. You know the British Island, you can do some things on there and also, like the old thing, there was a little book called Point it that they used to sell for people going on holiday. We could just point to things.
Speaker 1:So if it works you've got also, you've got 52 things to point to if you're trying to describe like I don't know, hopefully, and just use it as a communication tool, if nothing else, but yeah, it's just, then you've got, then you've got space to play. So I just yeah, if you buy more, if you buy more blocks or you buy more clay things, if you just around the house, there's another simple way for people to be creative you've, you know, you've got, you've got, you've got space to play with that, whereas if you're only buying things, that where the present, where everything's locked into the property, you can only use it one way. It's gonna be hard to be creative. So, yeah, that I think with that it would be enough to play with. I can do all these standard card tricks, but you can also reveal names or places or anything else you want to do well, I use snaps uh pretty much daily in in my restaurant work, uh, normally for younger folk oh yeah because I think visual tricks when it comes to to young people work so much better, basically, uh because it's
Speaker 3:almost like a universal thing. Images are known the world around. So even if someone has maybe a language barrier, as long as you know their name, you have a stunning revelation. And it's also great that you can prepare it before you approach a table. So normally, uh, the, the waitresses and the wait staff know what the trick is and they know what's going to happen, so they know immediately to get the name for me. So I get a young person's name straight away. They'll come, let me know, I'll set up the deck before approaching um, and literally just uh, the.
Speaker 3:The sort of line that I use is these cards are going to tell me something about you, so we're going to get you just to pick out some cards. They pick out some random cards A lot of the time. It's quite funny. Especially, I was at an event yesterday and there was like a six-year-old, seven-year-old kid called Oliver and Golf Club came out. So I, of course, I thought, well, this kid's never going to be into out. So I, of course I thought, well, this kid's never going to be into golf Turns out.
Speaker 1:absolutely loves golf. Oh, hilarious, amazing. There you go, nailed it you get a bonus, bonus hit.
Speaker 3:So you do. You get some great hits with it, Like people just go yeah, how, how did you?
Speaker 1:know that. Yeah, like the unfortunate. I was going to say a couple like that, isn't it? I see something a bit red and they're like, yeah, well, of course I play football.
Speaker 3:Yeah, of course whatever, it's just such a great trick, it's such a great deck and it's a really good choice. And, again, totally different to everything else. You know, gemini Twins, killer Elite. We've now, in terms of a card trick, the three card tricks that you have here so far. Gemini Twins, I would say, is probably the most relatable to a classic card trick. B-wave is more of a packet trick, it's kind of a quick mentalism piece. And now Snaps, which I would argue aren't really playing cards, they're photo cards.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think they seem like that, and especially if you're doing exactly because you've got the Force, and you also, if you want to, you know force, whatever and then you can do you know visual mind reading or drawing dupes with them or whatever so no I don't, I don't think it comes across I mean, it's hard to say not as as a magician, but, um, I think it doesn't feel like it comes.
Speaker 1:It doesn't? It shouldn't come across as a conventional card trick, because it's a trick with photos, or you know, I imagine, or photo cards or whatever. I imagine it will get remembered as oh, that trick of photos, or that trick where he knew we knew my name. You know, like that, that's how or how he knew I played golf. You know, that's that's the. If you always think of the imperfect memories, that's what you want like. What will get remembered as, and I think it will get remembered as that exactly yeah, well, that leads us very nicely onto your last selection.
Speaker 3:So what did you put in your last spot?
Speaker 1:so my last selection I hope, hope you'll forgive is the only one that's sort of directly from me, I suppose, which is the coin jar, which you know. So I will just to people who don't know this, and also, if you want a specific item that's based on it, this is part of the routine. This isn't all the routine, but the part of it. The coin vanishes based on coin unique, which we'll come to. So this, the part of it the coin vanishes based on coin unique, which we'll come to. But so this is again. This is I wanted to include one from my, partly because it's so random and also, but also it's practical. I think there's this, this other thing that that is a shame in magic sometimes is there. Sometimes there's these camps that feel like it's either workhorse routine yes, there we go. Ambitious card, omnideck, there we go. You, you know, solid workhorse or some creative stuff is seen as, oh, it's a bit of a fluffy pipe dream. You know it's not, it's not a proper trick, but actually, or it's impractical or whatever.
Speaker 1:And some, some tricks are impractical, you know, but then some workhorses are impractical so you get some workhorses and they're still actually you've got to carry four packs on you, whatever it is, you know. So, um, yeah, so this is this is I like it because it seems really like, it seems really random and it is, but it's actually surprisingly practical once you've. Also, I think there's I quite like I don't mind tricks of, but instead of a bottle it's a factory sealed or a sealed jar of I use pasta sauce, could be any jar of whatever and yeah, it's. But it's nice because the yeah, it's sealed and the safety button is down and if you want to, I generally don't hand it out, so I'm worried about choking hazards or whatever.
Speaker 1:But but like, if you want, you can hand it out to people because they they can examine it at the end, um, and the trick is they you say you're going to do a sort of um test conditions, um coin in bottle, but to make it harder, it's going to be a sealed bottle that's never been opened. So you bring out the pasta sauce, which gets a chuckle because it's random. But again, use again easy twist, use some jam, use some whatever you want, um, and then they pick a coin. They like we've got a bag of coins because not many people buy, bring carry coins. You've got like one of those clear sort of pouches, like like stationary pouches, with a bunch of coins in. They reach in, take one out, and so they end up with a 10p. Uh, then you have a control coin because it's test condition, so so you put the 2P, you put 10P and 2P in their hand, and then you hold the jar like this. And then it's a nice thing where, a bit like David I think David Parr has a trick called copycat, where they're sort of copying your gestures. So they put it on, so you copy, they put the jar on top, they rub the jar against the coins in their hand, they close it and then, when they lift it, there is now just one coin, the control coin. The other 10p is gone. And then they lift up the jar and they look underneath and underneath is the coin.
Speaker 1:Um, and the reason I like it is, um, yeah, it's random, it's fun, um, but also methodologically, without going into too much detail, it was one of the first ones where I tried to go from like a physics, like first principles, and I tried to logically go how how could you do this? Cause they used to do it with. I came up with the, the. So the actual like lid being sucked down is a is a sort of physics thing. It's not really. It's not a magic method.
Speaker 1:I didn't know how to do it and then my mom was like, oh well, why don't you just, you know, heat it up and that might work. So read the book for more details. But basically it's a physics thing. So then I could get the lid down and in my early book, one of the plot ones, I did it in a. It was sort of a coin in Snapple bottle I used back then. But you could see um, uh, and then um, I came back to it and I thought, oh well, you know, like, like, uh, barry richardson comes back to his routine sometimes and I thought, okay, well, maybe I can turn this into more of a thing. So I thought, well, if it's opaque then it can be in there.
Speaker 1:People don't won't look at the bottom, even though you think they might do. You know it's there, but they don't. They're not actually looking there, so they'll assume it's not there. And then I thought about um, and I thought, okay, well, it can't be signed because of the time it takes to set. Even I did come up with a way if you were doing a longer show, but basically it can't be signed. So I'm like, oh, okay, well, what about card trick? Because a card trick, you know.
Speaker 1:I thought about David Blaine's card through window randomly, which is again just that analogous, thinking of going take something from a card trick and whatever. And I went, well, that's not signed, and that's amazing. So why does that work? And I was like, well, it's freely chosen. As far as they know, it feels like they would have noticed it there beforehand Maybe if it was on the window. There's proximity and the pack gets close to the card. They're not just going oh, here's your card, now, look over there. The pack goes close to it. So I was like, well, maybe I can apply that sort of psychology to the jar. And so I went, okay, well, oh, and also the chance of it, the chance of getting there, the chance of any card being there, is quite impossible. So I kind of nickname it the fort knox principle. But basically, if the theory is that if if it's impossible for any card to get there like if you open fort knox and there was a card there, then the fact that it's not signed is maybe less important because it's amazing that anything got there. So I was like, well, the chance of any coin being here is quite impossible into a sealed passenger, so maybe that'll help. Then proximity I was like how can I do something that's really hands-off? So that's where the coin unique came in, where you can have two coins managed to one.
Speaker 1:Again a routine that we just go, oh, yeah, whatever, but amazing if you're, if you don't know the method, to a, to a, you know non-magician audience. And then proximity so rather than just having it vanish and appear having them rub the coin against it because, you know, magician, like lay people think like that. Anyway, you know you put your wallet on top of a deck and then they go, oh, hang on a minute, those hands came together or whatever. So then I went okay, and then if it's a free choice, or a seemingly free choice of coin. Then that helps as well because it couldn't be there before, because you know, how would you know? So it was really yeah.
Speaker 1:So I tried all those and went will this actually work? And then I tried it and it actually plays really well. So it's a nice routine and I used to carry it around in a sock because it doesn't get broken, which is not very glamorous a clean sock, um. But yeah, and I did it. You know I did it multiple gigs. I did it up in edinburgh and it's one of those, once you know, once you're set, you know you've got to reset the coin unique, but otherwise the bottle you can use again and again. You just sort of shake it down to make sure that the coin reaches down to the bottom, um.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it just is just a really fun routine to do and it's really hands-off and it's one of those where you've got which is fun, you've got sort of three methods you've got a coin force, you've got the sort of bottle prep and you've got the vanish of the coin and they all come together to hopefully do make something, which is, you know, normally I just want, I want to play and all the rest of it. It's not always my priority to make something that's really incredible. That's not always my first priority, but in this case I wanted something to just be like what. But hopefully it all comes together like that anyway.
Speaker 3:So I obviously saw you do this a few months ago at the Young Magicians Club and one incredibly annoying thing that came out of it I'm sorry to say this is a negative. As soon as you learn the method, all you will do for the rest of your life is to see things that you can use for the method.
Speaker 1:It's so true you go yeah, it's the new version of. Oh, there's got to be a trick in that. It's like I wonder, if I like, will it blend those old ads?
Speaker 2:It's like I wonder if I like will it blend those old ads? It's like I wonder if you can stick that in a bowl.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Or exactly. When you go into a supermarket and they see me, you go hmm, lemon curd, is that going to work?
Speaker 3:So literally you'll look at everything and you go, ah, that would work, that would work. Yeah, it's great. And people who know, obviously James Brown's fancier pot of jam oh, his fancier pot of jam.
Speaker 1:There's lovely callbacks to that Every time I see a jam thing, I go I should really put a thing in a jam thing. I haven't got around to it, like so, yeah, exactly, that would be exactly ideal, yeah. One thing I did discover, though, is if you use something very acidic, like pasta sauce I had one and I hadn't done it a while. I had one and I hadn't done it in a while, and someone said, oh, come and do a trick, or wherever it was. So I was like, oh, okay, cool, so I got it, and it corroded the coin. So it was still really effective. But then there was one. You know, I left it with them, and there's always one person who really, really wants to find out how things were done, so they'd open the jar and pour it out, and I was like, maybe, maybe don't store that for more than a couple of weeks, so good to know for next time well, that's a great round off.
Speaker 3:So we've gone from gemini twins, killer, elite, holy moly, hydrostatic glass, wordo b, wave snaps and, uh, your coin and jar. What is the name of it?
Speaker 1:just I call it coin jar coin jar.
Speaker 3:Uh, a great, great list, completely different, each one of them very, very diverse list. Um, but it does lead us onto your two curveball items. Now. Obviously, we've given you eight of everything before now. Now you only get one book and one non-magic item. So what did you put in your book position?
Speaker 1:so my book position. So my mad it's magic book, isn't it? I hope, yes, okay. So my book, which is hard because I've got so many. I thought I had about 50 magic books and I counted one day and it was over 150 or it's nearing 150. So I love, I love magic books. So my book is again.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit off piece.
Speaker 1:So I thought about the Art of Astonishment but unfortunately, because that was, they were the books I had, my first big magic books and they, you know, say Paul Harris, similarly offbeat, like I love, I love his stuff.
Speaker 1:But there, offbeat, like I love, I love his stuff, but there's three of them, so that doesn't quite count. So I thought I'd do one which maybe isn't as well known but I think is really good, which I have it, which is called be more funny and it's by christopher w barnes and he performs I nodded and he performs as a christopher team magician when he's performing for kids, um, and the reason I like this is is on a similar theme, like it's so the basic premise of the book um, which is really interesting. So he mainly does children's magic but he also does tricks for adults and this is all based around that. And the basic premise is that he takes a whole bunch of different comedy tropes. So, again, outside inspiration, he takes a bunch of comedy tropes from TV shows and films and then he goes, takes each one and then he goes. Well, given that trope, how could like, like I don't know if this is one here, for instance, doing things in slow motion? That's not, that's not the one. Or or mishearing a word, say, and then he goes how could you apply that to magic? And then for most of them he'll have a trick about that, and then he'll also have a bunch of other ways that you could push things, and he's got a whole bunch of other ideas in there as well. Um, and it's just so fun and refreshing.
Speaker 1:Um, a book, and it's one of those books I like books, I like you know, so I aim for when I'm writing my own, but I like any, any kind of books I read. That get my bone brain whizzing with ideas. Or, like you know, like you said with the jam thing, like where you just go oh, you could do that, well, you could do. Oh, that's an interesting angle, that's it. So I think it's a. It's a really interesting way of thinking. Um, I don't I haven't specifically gone through myself and gone what a comedy tropes will be applied, but I like that sort of outside inspiration of going here's another concept and then how can you apply that to magic? And then how you know what are three different ways you could do that and how could you push that somewhere. Um, so I just think it's really it would, it would.
Speaker 1:It's one of those books that I go back to, like. I know, like like strong magic or whatever, or um, or art of astonishment, that I need to go back to um, where each time you go back to it you find something fresh, because there's just so many ideas in there and there's there's the fully fledged, rounded routines, which are great. There's, um, I'm not a fan of vaping personally, but there's like, there's a, there's a fun routine where you sort of vanish a vape, I think there's in here and then it reappears in a bag, kind of like nested boxes, but different, like just really interesting. He's also. He suits that style of going. Here's this, what about this? But how about you twist it to that? Or how about you do you know a card and billy lemon, but actually you've got 50 lemons or like whatever. He just goes this, but with a twist.
Speaker 1:He's really good at doing that, and so I think I would enjoy that because it would just feed my brain, um, like my, my hungry brain, which is always hungry for ideas, and also because they're sending me off different, jumping off points. I feel like I could come back to it several times and go, you know, oh okay, I've got this coconut and I you know coconut and uh, you know whatever it is in a raft, and then I go, well, what can I do with? Oh, okay, well, what about a silent movie with a coconut raft? Or what about you know, uh, what will use some striking vanish with a? You movie with a coconut rave? Or what about you know, uh, what will use some striking vanish with a? You know, with a brunch and a coconut and a very big hand? Um, you know, I just yeah, so that that would, that would keep me happy there. Uh, just because it's so varied and it's about creativity, which makes me happy great, and maybe one that not as many people are aware of.
Speaker 1:So that's that's a really nice one for people to pick up I think he's gone under the radar a bit, but I think it's just really interesting and and like, like I say like you, you like any of these books. You know you might not do all of them, but like it just. It just gets your brain thinking and often it's using existing methods or tweaks on existing methods. So it's not, it's not unachievable around this stuff. I think it's just yeah, it's just really. I'm surprised it doesn't crop up more, because it's really creative.
Speaker 3:Well, that leads us on to your item, and I mean you've already got some quirky items in there. You've already got a glass with you. You've already got a jar, so you've got food on your island with you. You've got postcards with Kidder Elite to write home with. You've got cards to play some games with.
Speaker 1:So what did you put in your item? So that is a good point. I hadn't taken that in. That's good. I'm set up too badly there. That's good. That's good. I need a duvet or something, but so, again, I consider a notepad and pen for ideas, because I don't know if it's all creative people or just me, but I'm very good at coming up with ideas, remembering things. There's not so much so my phone's app. I've always got things in there, but I thought that people will have said that probably so.
Speaker 1:Instead, I'm going with another food item to go with a, not not at the same time, but separately. I'm going to go with some garibaldi biscuits, um, and the reason is I generally I don't get hangry, but I do get a bit. It doesn't sound as good, but hesper, basically, if I'm like, if like, if it's late at night and I haven't eaten anything, I'll just get a little bit like. Oh, like every everything seems a bit hard and I feel like a little bit like or you're trying to, you know, trying if you hit a wall, where you're trying to problem solve on a trick or something, you can't quite get it, or, like you know, a bit like you're trying to juggle three things that you're doing in life or a life admin or whatever it is, and you get to a point I'm like, oh, but I know, I know myself enough by now if I've had a cup of tea and uh and uh, you know, maybe I'll just have some hot water or whatever.
Speaker 1:If I have some cup of tea, the garibaldi biscuit like, or even I think garibaldi, because, um, I read treasure. I hadn't read it recent until recently. I read treasure ireland, because I realized I never read it. And there's a bit in there where he goes back into the ship and there's some wine and there's some like crackers and some raisins and he just I think some dried meat or something. He just eats those and I was like, oh, there we go. So they feel suitably cast away and also they're quite flat. So you know, I could probably, you could probably do some kind of packet trick if you got really bored with the. You know, when I've worn out the rest of my cards and all the rest of it and I've got nothing left, I can be fiddling with some packet trick with my hands and that will keep me happy and hopeful.
Speaker 3:So if anyone listening to this has Oliver turn up for a lecture, you must greet him with some biscuits, just in case he's hangry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, just feed me food like food, food, food, food, sleep, magic, like food, naps and magic like that. That's that's about. And family you know like family should probably come first, but you know like, as long as I've got that, I'm a happy bunny, I'm a simple man. So yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:Well, that's a great list. Now, if people do want to find out more about you and your new book, and maybe lecturing, where can they go?
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that I said like about 10 years ago with Plotbooks or wherever I was around and lecturing and stuff like that. Now I've gone freelance again, so I finally have time for the first time in a while, so I have more time. So I am very into I'm looking into booking some lectures at the moment. So, yeah, absolutely so, drop me a line. I'm on Facebook, I'm Oliver Meach and I look like this. There's not that many Oliver Meachs out there, hopefully. Yeah, and I'm OliverMeachcom, or, if you want my book.
Speaker 1:So my new book is called Effervescent and that is available, I think, like I said, I may stock Murphy's have some, but if you want to buy it direct from me, that would be amazing. If you just go to Lulu L-U-L-U like the singer Lulucom and then just put my name Oliver Meach or Effervescent in there, then it will come up and then, um, it's print on demand, so they send them out. But it also means that my old books are there as well. So if you want to get the plot books, they're there and my eBooks and stuff like that. Uh, if you, if, if shipping's difficult, you can get effervescent as an eBook.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 1:So if you want to get some of them, that's great. If you want to, I'm also considering adding creative coaching, because I quite enjoy creativity and also I worked in agencies. I've been kind of head of copy and I've mentored other people. So if anyone is interested, I don't have a formal offering on my site, but if anyone wants some sort of help brainstorming as a bouncing ideas or is feeling stuck or whatever, then drop me a line about that. But yeah, I might. Yeah, just my emails, onivermeachcom, um, or go on lulucom and search my name and, yeah, book me. Book me for things and I will. I will come and come and do magic for you amazing.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much, oliver. It's nice to finally get you on here yeah, it's so nice to be on here.
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, I enjoy listening to it. It's so nice to be. Uh, it's nice to be asked.
Speaker 3:I really enjoyed it and oliver is one of the guests who um actually did quite a few notes. He showed me the notes at the at the very beginning, um, they're all typed up very nicely. He, he did a lot of um effort and put a lot of effort into this.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, thank you again oh, you're very welcome, loved it and again, if you guys, uh, aren't aware, we do have a version of this which goes out on a monday, called stranded with a stranger. If you want to be a part of that, you can send in your list of eight tricks one item on one book to sales at alakazamcouk. In the subject line put my desert island tricks. That way it comes through to me. Please do include a little bio about yourself, obviously, why you chose those tricks, and we will get one of those recorded for you on a monday. Of course, we'll be back next week.
Speaker 3:We are nearly approaching, at the time of recording this, the end of the first season now. Now, obviously, we record these a few months in advance. So, yeah, we've nearly recorded an entire year's worth, and that's not including that's just the main podcast, of course, with all of the other ones, I think we're well over 100 episodes now at the time of recording. So you know that's pretty crazy. Now we're going to introduce something new next year into the new season, which should be fun, another thing that our guests can do. So they can do one, one more thing on their island, which I think would be quite funny, um, so, with that being said, we'll see you next week, of course, monday we're stranded with a stranger friday with the main podcast. Uh, have a great week, bye-bye hello guys.
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