Desert Island Tricks
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Desert Island Tricks
Ali Cook
Join us as we welcome the incredibly talented Ali Cook to the show, where he shares stories from his diverse and remarkable career in magic. From a daring water tank escape act at the Edinburgh Festival to his celebrated performances on shows like Monkey Magic and Channel 4's Dirty Tricks, Ali opens up about the creativity and innovation that have driven his success. Get ready to be inspired as Ali sheds light on the eclectic influences that have shaped his unique style and the advice that led him to chart his own path in the world of magic.
In this episode, we delve into the art of being an all-rounder in magic, drawing inspiration from legends like Fred Capps who excelled across multiple genres. Ali recounts his own experiences, including some hair-raising near-misses, and emphasises the importance of pushing the boundaries of creativity in magic. We also explore the evolving nature of his routines, from the intricate Hang Ping Chen to his own original Ring In Walnut, illustrating how these performances come to life on stage.
Throughout our conversation, we explore the fascinating dynamics of magic, performance, and creativity. Ali shares candid insights on handling pressure and the balance between innovation and relying on tried-and-true tricks like the invisible deck. Whether it's keeping certain routines private or refining his craft through performances in bustling comedy clubs, Ali's journey is a testament to the passion and dedication that magic demands. Tune in for an episode filled with magical insights, personal anecdotes, and the joys of creative exploration.
Ali Cook’s Dessert Island Tricks:
1: Water Torture Cell
2: Chicken and Duck head Transpo
3: 6 coins and a Chinese coin
4: Ring in Walnut
5: Borrowed woman’s shoe which disasters and appears inside a shoebox
6: Invisible Deck
7: Suspended Animation Illusion
8: Cannibal Kings
Book: Day Vernons The Further Inner Lost Secrets
Item: Sharon the Dove
Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk
Firstly, I performed it in the Edinburgh Festival and the first time I ever did it I got trapped underwater. So we did the classic version on Monkey Magic and I got into the tank and they locked the padlocks and the secret that we know as magicians was actually made of wood and this had never been done before with real water. The wood all got swollen and I literally couldn't get out and I was genuinely trapped and they had to drag me out. I mean, I got out fast but they all fortunately saw the problem. But they had no, the locks they had were all real. So they had to manually undo them maybe six locks to then drag me out of the tank.
Speaker 1:And because of that there was something about that that drew me back. I wanted to do the water tank again and also at the time I was putting a show together for edinburgh years ago, I met a photographer who said to me look at what everyone's doing in your field and do the opposite, and I always thought it was great advice. So if you go to the edinburgh festival, everyone does a close-up magic show or they do a mind-reading show. So I just thought, wow, why not do an illusion? And it worked really well, so we came up with the water tank from there.
Speaker 3:Hello and welcome to another episode of Desert Island Tricks. We have a guest who is already planning his descent onto our island as we speak and I'm really excited for today's guest because I've actually watched today's guest a lot over the years, certainly when I was younger, on Monkey Magic, which I absolutely loved growing up. It was so funny, always really quirky and different, and I've written like a little intro for today's guest. So Ali is known for a wide array of magic, including knuckle busting, sleight of hand, escapology and mentalism. He's very much an all-rounder. He's written and starred in numerous television series, including Channel 4's Dirty Tricks, which was nominated for a British Comedy Award. He's been in incredible TV shows like Dirty Tricks, monkey Magic, psychic Secrets with Darren Brown and the Secret World of Magic. He's performed three critically acclaimed sellout Edinburgh shows called A Touch of Vegas, pieces of Strange and Principles and Deceptions. He's also an acclaimed actor and recently wrote and starred in the short film the Cunning man, which was long listed for a BAFTA and won over 30 awards.
Speaker 3:So I'm really interested. I think, based on what what we just heard there, if you watch a lot of his shows, he always had his hand in lots of different things. There was escapology things, there was mind reading things, there was card tricks, there was coin tricks, there was sort of a mix of everything. So I think that's where his list's going to go, but I'm very excited to finally talk to him, so let's bring him on Everybody. This is Mr Ali Cook. Hello, ali.
Speaker 1:How do? Thanks very much for having me on the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you for coming. Like I say, you are someone that I've watched throughout my growing up years. That's not a phrase, but we're going to go with it. Now, knowing how much of a hand that you had in those shows, it makes me excited for your list, because I think it's going to be such a different, maybe list of things because of what you've been exposed to in your career.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, and you know, I love magic, you know, and I love all aspects of magic and I'm not a magic snob. I think all genres of magic are great. I think all genres of magic are great. The reason why is I once heard a story David Ross told me about a famous close-up magician met Fred Capps, and he was in a room with oh, let me start this again. Yeah, so I'm an all-rounder in magic, because David Ross told me a story about Fred Capps where Brother John Hammond said you know, fred Capps is the world's best manipulator and he's also got a great comedy act and also he does illusions, he goes.
Speaker 1:Do you know what's really depressing? I saw him do a kid's show the other day. It was the best kid's magic show I've ever seen. And I actually think that there's something about that, that we live in this age where we feel like we need to corner a niche, and I think it comes from marketing. But you know, 20, 30 years ago, people just booked a magician and they expected that magician to just be able to do anything, and I've always liked the idea that if you say, oh, can you read my mind? You do it. Can you vanish a coin. Yeah, you can do it. That's what I value as a magician.
Speaker 3:So did you find it particularly difficult putting your list together.
Speaker 1:Yes, I found this very, very difficult and you know it's almost impossible for me to do a list, but I'm trying to think about things that really get me going when I actually perform them. And because I've been in all genres, it is very difficult. Yeah, because I like all types of magic.
Speaker 3:Do you have a favourite kind of magic? That being said, do you have a preference for a certain kind of effect?
Speaker 1:uh, yes, I think. Uh, I have. Um, my favorite magic is coin magic. Um, I started as a coin magician. Really, I lived in the middle of nowhere, in the countryside, in a village outside of harrogate, new yshire, I mean in the middle of nowhere. The first magic book I ever got was the Modern Art of Coin Manipulation by Ron McMillan, and I thought that's what every magician does. So what I didn't know is that this was a fizz of manips, act with crazy coin moves, so I just learned it. I didn't have, you know, there's no, we're talking pre-internet here, you know, and I had that, and I also had Peter Elding's Pocket Book of Magic and I had the Ali Bongo Book of Magic and that was it. So I really started as a coin guy and then I got into Roth's Expert Coin Magic and so I'd say that's my favourite type of magic overall.
Speaker 3:If this is the first time you're listening to the podcast, then the idea is we're about to maroon Ali on his own magical island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks, one book and one non-magic item that he uses for magic Particulars like who's there? Are there animals there? All that good stuff we do not not mind. This island exists only in Ali's imagination. So, with that being said, we're gonna get our little boat over there right now and find out what Ali put in his first position all right.
Speaker 1:Well, um, trick number one is my version of the Houdini water tank escape. Um, obviously I like instant reset. You can take it around the tables, easy going. You know it's a worker, easy to learn, everyone can do it. Cheap to buy, you know it ticks every box. So, no, I do. I think the water tank trick is.
Speaker 1:I've performed this firstly. I performed it in the Edinburgh Festival in 2010. And the first time I ever did it, I got trapped underwater. So we did the classic version on Monkey Magic on TV, and Richard Pinner had built the classic vertical water tank and I got into the tank and they locked the, the padlocks and the the secret that we we know as magicians was actually made of wood and this had never been done before with real water. The wood all got swollen and I literally couldn't get out and I was genuinely trapped and they they had to drag me out. I mean, I got out fast, but they all, fortunately, saw the problem. But they had no, the locks they had were all real, so they had to manually undo them maybe six locks to then drag me out of the tank and because of that, there was something about that that drew me back that I wanted to do the water tank again, and also at the time I was putting a show together for Edinburgh, and years ago I met a photographer who said to me look at what everyone's doing in your field and do the opposite.
Speaker 1:So and I always thought it was great advice. So if you go to the edinburgh festival, everyone does a closer magic show or they do a mind reading show. So I just thought, wow, why not do an illusion at the edinburgh festival? And um, and it worked really well.
Speaker 3:So we, we came up with the water tech from there so you're not the first person that's actually said a water cell escape on the podcast, which is incredible. My question to you then is when you redeveloped it for your Edinburgh show, did you change the prop from that point on then? Did you change it to a different method or gimmick?
Speaker 1:Yeah, considerably. Yeah, a different method or gimmick? Yeah, yeah, considerably, yeah. So, um, I do a version john gorn developed for mark wilson where you get into the tank and but when you're about to do an escape, your assistant stands on the tank to lift up the curtain and then, instead of doing the escape, you do a sub trunk illusion now the original version that the other people perform. They have almost like a big frame and it's almost like a like a tent, almost like a circus tent that falls around the tank and it's really, really big. And although it's, it's a very startling trick because after you do the sub trunk illusion, I dive through the curtain and you see that I'm now a skate and my assistant is in the tank.
Speaker 1:However, I found that the the curtain system was just too big, so I invented a new version where I wanted the speed of the Pendragons but they added water. So I invented a brand new curtain system, basically, which was a total nightmare, but we just developed it over six months and managed to come up with something where I think we do the switch in about three and a half seconds. So it's and that's from picking up the curtain in about three and a half seconds, and that's from picking up the curtain. And the beauty of it, though, is, I think, that the big problem with all escapology is that escapology relies on suspense, in that you know what's going to happen, you just think it's impossible, which is can he get out of a straitjacket before the road burns? Ah, he just did it, whereas what's great with this version is I'm going to do an escape, and everyone's thinking, yeah, it's scary, but he'll get out, and just as they're thinking that you actually do the sub-trunk. So you've got suspense and surprise, and I think that's what I love about this version.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that sounds amazing. Is it something that you're going to revisit in the future, or do you feel like you're done with that trick for now?
Speaker 1:No, it's so a trick like that there's there's no point touring it unless you're doing a big show. So I am working on a big show at the moment which we previewed at the Royal and Dern Gate in Northampton last year. So the water tank's in that show. So I do do the water tank, but you know you're not going to do it at a residency, you're not going to do it at a corporate either. I mean, I've had requests to do it at a corporate.
Speaker 1:But the minute you know the hardest thing in magic is everyone thinks you're magic. So everyone's like, oh, can you bring your water tank? We magic is everyone thinks you're magic. So everyone's like, oh, can you bring your water tank? We've seen you do it on youtube. It's amazing. And I'm like well, yeah, have you got a hot water supply that can fill up 90 odd liters? Oh, no, um, is there a water supply near the stage? Uh, no. Do you have a ramp to get this tank up onto the stage? Uh, no, you know so people often they don't realize that the sheer logistics of a trick like that. But if you're doing a residency, like when I did, um, uh, in the impossible show, you know you're in a theater for six weeks and a trick like that's perfect well, that's a big heavy hitter straight in at number one as well.
Speaker 1:We, we've not, we've not gone in slowly oh, and there's another reason as well, which is, you know, if you're putting me on a desert island, you need somewhere to store water, obviously. So I thought you know it's an added bonus.
Speaker 3:Yeah I'm not sure that water's going to be particularly warm, though that's the that's the only problem well, yeah, I mean the other thing.
Speaker 1:When I first got this water tank, I had no idea how the trick was done. I just had the props bill and when I, when I also got in it, the water was freezing. And I don't. If you get into a water tank and the water is cold, you will actually freeze yourself and you just go. You can't move properly. It's a horrible feeling. So if anyone's thinking about doing a water tank, yes, definitely get some heaters great well, that makes me excited for number two.
Speaker 3:So what did you put in your second spot?
Speaker 1:so for number two, uh is a trick I performed on pen and teller foolers. Um, this is the uh chicken and duck um head transposition effect. Um, that I first um came across a spanish magician doing this on youtube years ago and I was chatting to scott penrose about it, who would he'd done the head off for um, that tv detective series that used to have alan davis on and and so, um, we were going up to edinburgh and again I was thinking, why not try and find some illusions? And what's great about the, the chicken and duck head transposition is that it's it's an illusion, but it also involves some skill. So, and an audience can perceive that, so that one of the big problems with illusions is, you know, it's a guy getting a cabinet and he vanishes, and you know that the skills in the mechanics, whereas the chicken and the duck, because you're pulling the heads off, manipulating the objects, it's a combination of prop magic and also a bit of sleight of hand, and I think an audience senses that and also it's just absolutely ridiculous. I mean, it's nuts and it's a fascinating history with this trick. So it was first mentioned, as far as I know.
Speaker 1:Obviously, you know, deity did it in ancient Egypt. And after he did it, the pharaoh said can you do the same trick with some prisoners? And Dady famously said oh no, it's all right, let me show you a card trick instead. And after that Robert Houdin put it in his diaries, and in the old version they used to use a black dove and a white dove, and he saw a French street performer doing this version of the trick, and yet he had actually pulled the heads off the doves or pigeons. And the bit of audience banter that the guy had is he used to hold his forefinger over the neck of the dead pigeon and he would go up to a woman in the audience, let go of his forefinger and a little bit of blood would squirt out and land on their dress. Now, that that's what they called audience banter, or by play in the 1800s. And then it was surveyor roy who had the idea of changing it to using a chicken and a duck and making it more of a comedic effect when he had a double lap with Bosco and Leroy, which is the version that I learned. So, yeah, that's my number two. And again, you know, I think maybe I'm the only person who's been doing this trick in the last 10 years or so. It's obviously a nutter pain in the ass to do it.
Speaker 1:I think the huge lesson from the chicken and duck transposition head transposition trick is it was the first time in magic that I realised that you don't have to fool an audience in order to entertain them. Everyone kind of knows what's going on. They don't fully know, but it was the first time that I realized that the most important thing is the plot of the trick, because everyone loves the ridiculous idea, everyone's already entertained and it's kind of a bit like you know, they talk about pitching movies. If you can pitch the movie in one sentence and everyone goes, oh, that sounds great, because they can imagine it, then I think that this trick really lives up to that hype. You know, I'm going to take a chicken, I'm going to take the duck a duck and I'm going to swap the heads over and I was like what I want to see that and even though it's bonkers, everyone loves it.
Speaker 1:I think another thing that's a real downside of magic um, with the onset of close-up magic and the need to be practical and, and you know, having instant reset type tricks that we can do anywhere, one of the big failures of magic is the plots have got worse and they've become too subtle, and one of my hobbies is actually looking at tricks from the Victorian era and they were always like chopping a head off, making a ghost appear. You know, spirits possessed her Like. These are tricks you want to see. They don't want to see oil and water. You know like it's so. So I think that that was one of the other things when doing a trick like that is it's.
Speaker 3:It's pretty brutal, the plot is brutal and and audiences want to see it yeah, I think we need to get lost in the whimsy of the world again. I think that's.
Speaker 1:That's the thing yeah, I, I do sometimes. And, um, I think also, if, if every magician uh learned one old trick that no one's doing, it would be, it would be a great place. And it was again that photographer who said. I met this photographer when I was 17. He did my first ever promo shots and I just always remembered it. I and it. When I do an edinburgh show it's impossible to have an hour of all new original material. You know people say they can do that they can't do. You'd be putting that show together for a lifetime, brand new plots and methods, et cetera. But one thing that I think is a manageable goal is to do a third of a show where you know no one else in your country is doing this. You know, and I think that's not a bad goal to have. And you know you could just take a trick from the 50s no one's doing, and um, uh, quite easily and, and I think it immediately.
Speaker 3:It just creates variety for all of us now, that's great, and it does lead us lovely uh onto number three. So what did you put in your third position?
Speaker 1:so in the third position I put six coins and a Chinese coin. Now, from here I could bore an audience for 20 minutes with my coin routines. I mean with five coins. I would do Roth's coins across, I would do Paul Wilson's handling of 3-fly, I would do Roger Klaus's coins through table, I'd do Slidini's two coins coin through table, I would do Roth's one coin routine. But if I had to summarise it into one trick, I would do Dai Vernon's version of the Hang Ping Chen coins through table.
Speaker 1:It's a trick that's surprisingly unpopular now, but I'm telling you this is a killer. It's a very, very strong trick and the move is so obscure that I don't think a lay audience can really understand the concept of Han Ping Chen. It's just an incredible idea and because of that unique method it really is a fooler. It's a wonderful trick and I think another thing that I sometimes look at when you're reading a magic book is what is the trick they put in as the very first trick of the book? Because I'm sure the editor is thinking well, we've got to capture them on the first trick, so we'll put it's almost like a magic show. You know, we'll put either the best trick first or the second to best trick. First, and it was interesting that the Die Vernon Book of Magic opens with the Hang Ping Chen coin through table and it's a very strong trick.
Speaker 3:So if someone wanted to get into that routine, where would you recommend them to start?
Speaker 1:I think every magician should buy the Die Vernon Book of Magic. It's sometimes easy to overlook a book like that because it's full of classics, but if you learn just one trick from that book, it will make you a better magician. And also, if you read the opening chapter about what makes Vernon a great magician, he talks about be yourself and use your head, which sounds overly simplistic. Simplistic, but it really is true. You know, in in magic we're all so scared to fail that the natural instinct is to copy the guy who is successful.
Speaker 1:But so you know, in the 90s when I first got into magic, it was everyone wanted to be Copperfield and then a little bit later, everyone wanted to be David Bl. It was, everyone wanted to be Copperfield and then a little bit later everyone wanted to be David Blaine and then everybody wanted to be Deron. But really it's okay to be yourself and you sense that about performers who have got to that point, really, and that's in the opening chapter of that book. But that coin routine, it's a great trick and it's perfectly described in that magic book. Because what's great in the Die Vernon Book of Magic? They do a lengthy explanation and then at the end they do bullet point notes. So it was actually a form of writing in a magic book that I've not seen since, but I just thought it was a great way of learning yeah, that sounds really cool.
Speaker 3:Uh, the the idea of just having that step by step refresh at the end yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And also, um um, lewis ganson said practice the basic, move over and over and over again and then start doing a routine, and I just thought that was a very good.
Speaker 3:It was just a very a good way of looking at learning a trick well, we've gone from, uh, water torture cell to a chicken and dog head, transpo to six coins and a chinese coin. So, uh, my prediction of an eclectic mix of tricks is definitely, definitely there. I would love to see your close-up case rocking up to a gig it's pretty big.
Speaker 1:That's all I'm saying. Uh, I'm gonna need a big case to get to this island.
Speaker 3:I know that much, uh, but that brings us nicely onto number four. So what did you put in your fourth spot?
Speaker 1:um, in my fourth spot is a routine that I developed when I was 21, which was the ringing walnut routine, and I performed this first on TV on the Secret World of Magic in around 2003, 2004. And I performed it at the Magic Castle, and it was a routine that I invented, and I kept the method a secret for many, many years. Now, years later, other people have actually brought out a version and marketed it, but it's a routine that I'll still perform, if I don't do many close up gigs anymore. But the reason it's one of the strongest tricks I've ever performed and I'm proud that I came up with it. The reason I came up with it, though, was born out of practicality, so I used to perform the note to kiwi fruit, which was popularized by Carl Cloutier. So he did a lecture for International Magic, and because he does sleeving, almost no one bought this video, and I bought it, and he does a version of the note to Kiwi where he hands out the Kiwi does a clever shuttle pass for the loaded Kiwi, and it was halfway through his lecture, and I was like what? This is a miracle, and no one was doing it, and I started doing it, and then I moved to London and then, after I moved to London, quite a few people started doing it.
Speaker 1:I'd like to think I was the person who made it popular of. I don't know if other people are doing it, but as soon as I started doing it, kevin Ray started doing it, martin Sanderson started doing it, and these were very high paid corporate workers and there was just something great about that routine and soggy, and you've got it loose and it's cut open in your pocket and so you would end up ruining your suits, uh, with just kiwi juice in your pockets from doing it all night, night after night, until the point eventually I was like I need another fruit. And then I thought, well, I don't want to do a lemon, because everyone's done a billion lemon. And then I thought, well, what is dry? And then I thought about a nut, and then from there I just started developing the ring to walnut and then it just became a staple of my closer pats.
Speaker 3:So you mentioned that you did parlor performances. Have you ever done this as a parlor piece as well?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did the the ringing walnut for a long time in comedy clubs and, uh, my wife, um fosia, she came to see me at um, at the backyard comedy club which is in east london, and, um, she was sat near the back. Now, at that time that club was really popular. He would have 300 or 400 in a night. Most weekends it was fast, furious, ram to the hill and I did the Ring in Walnut and I used to do the routine on stage differently than close-up, because in close-up it's just about you chit-chatting away, but on stage you've got to have a premise or something.
Speaker 1:So, like the whole routine I used to do is I'd get a woman on stage and I would be trying to chat her up really badly whilst doing this trick and it was full of innuendo. And, to be honest, I wouldn't dare do this routine now because I think I think the jokes and the lines are just a bit too clunky. I feel like my comedy's got better, but I used to do it there. But she said to me it's, it's too small. She was sat at the back and she said it's too small. And that's when I started developing impossible locations for um, for uh, for stage is your version available?
Speaker 3:did you ever make it available to performers?
Speaker 1:uh, no, I, I kept it for myself. Yeah, I. I find there's this terrible thing in the magic world where people will do lectures, and then I had this a lot when I was doing TV magic, and then you buy their lecture notes or their trick, and then I had that lucky opportunity to perform on TV. I would then perform their tricks on routine and then they'd start emailing you going, why are you doing my trick on TV? And I'm like, well, I bought it off you.
Speaker 1:And uh, it's one of the weird things in magic where everyone wants to do a lecture but no one really wants you to do their trick. You know, to a wide audience. But of course, if you don't want people to do it, by law you shouldn't be selling it. You know, because the minute you've sold it you've actually told everyone you don't mind if they do it. So that is actually the truth of it. Mind if they do it. So that that's actually. That is actually the truth of it. Um, so I realized that I didn't want people to do the ringing walnut, so I never lectured it.
Speaker 3:I, I kept it to myself well, let's hope one day we do learn it, because I think it'd be really interesting to to see your version I kept it very simple.
Speaker 1:It was a proper worker. Uh, people have watched it on tv and they obviously didn't be able to figure it out, uh. But what was annoying is I I did do um the walnuts to glass routine first, which is in the the di vernon um book. Uh, the further lost in a secret volume two, uh, which is where you have three walnuts and one at a time they vanish and they peer inside of an upside down glass. So I did do that routine and anthony owen cut it. I was like oh thanks, and all we saw was a ringing walnut. I was like classic tv producer cutting, that's like cutting to the finale of the cup and balls and you never see all that work you put in for those first few minutes.
Speaker 3:So yeah, well, that's a great uh again eclectic mix. We've now gone to um a walmart, so we've got a good range so far. Uh, and it does bring us to number five. So what did you put in your fifth position?
Speaker 1:so the fifth routine is a routine I've invented myself, which is a borrowed woman's shoe that disappears and reappears inside of a shoe box that's been hanging from the stage since the very beginning. I recently did a show in Northampton and David Penn came up to me afterwards and says oh my God, this is one of the best things I've ever seen in magic. But the reality is I thought it was a big bag of bollocks. I came up with this routine just for the jokes. And I came up with this routine, this routine I was going back to Edinburgh and I used to do a mobile phone to Pringles can that I'd invented, because my wife said the ringing walnut is too small. So I came up with a ring to Pringles can, my own version, which I've performed many, many years. And then I went back to Edinburgh and I thought, right, I've got to come, come up with another impossible location.
Speaker 1:We all know there's only really seven plots in magic and my route to creativity is really simple. It's quite simply change the props. So when I so, for example, if I'm doing a mind reading routine uh, or I see an amazing mind reading routine, say that so like deron's performed, I thought, how could I do that, but just change the props. And in this case I thought what is an object that that a woman really values? But it isn't a phone, a ring, a watch. What is an object that we all know that? Um, it's a bit of a stereotype, but most women love shoes, uh, or they love handbags. And I thought, well, there's no way I can vanish a handbag, but is it plausible that could vanish a shoe? And it was born from there and it was helped with jim steinmeier and it was helped with, uh, with scott penrose.
Speaker 1:And what happens in the in the effect is the shoe box is already hanging to the left like a master prediction box. I have a table with another shoe box. I put their shoe into it. I then ask them to hold the shoe box when they open the shoebox. A man's trainer is now inside of the shoebox instead. I then look down at my feet and my shoe was gone, so I'm I've just got a pair of socks on, and so my shoe has gone into the shoebox and their shoe is the one in the box hanging from the ceiling. But the routine is just joke, joke, joke, joke, joke. It's completely designed to be very visible, but really it's just jokes. That's why I came up with it.
Speaker 3:Is it one that you still perform now?
Speaker 1:It is, yeah, but again, what a technical nightmare it's like. I will do it at a big theater show, yeah, but I, I won't do it anywhere else. Yeah, um, but yeah, it's uh, put it this way, fans of tommy wonder will have a bit of an idea what's going on, uh, but that is what's going on, and I had to get a film prop builder to build it. It was the only way. But yeah, again, I definitely do perform it, and I think one of the great things with sometimes when you get a show is if you do take that idea of, wow, can a third of this show be my own stuff and you can work on those tricks for the rest of your life, basically, and that's one of them when I perform at gigs, I look at effects that tick these three boxes.
Speaker 2:Is it super strong and powerful? Yes, will it last with your spectators for a lifetime? Absolutely, and does it leave them with a souvenir that perfectly captures the moment of magic? If that all sounds exactly what you're after, look no further than the liquid forks. These forks have been custom designed to be able to bend right in front of your spectator's eyes. It's so easy to perform, it's so visual and, trust me, they will honestly keep this impossible object because they've seen it morph in front of their eyes. It literally does the impossible.
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Speaker 3:Well, I think that sounds excellent. I think if anyone gets the opportunity to see you perform that, I think it sounds like a superb routine. Just as a tiny aside, when you come up with the ideas for these tricks, do you write objects on one piece of paper and then an eventuality on the other and then just sort of mix them, because it seems like you're really good at taking two completely opposing views and making them into a thing it's a night.
Speaker 1:Not very nice of you to say that. Um, I think I what happened with me, jonathan Goodwin and Pete Furman and the late Pete McCartney is when we got asked to do Monkey Magic Andrew O'Connor who produced that show. I think that quite a lot of the TV magic we did for Andrew. I think it had problems. I think not all of it worked, but I think a lot of it did work and I think one of the things that worked with Andrew is he forced us to be creative. So one of the things Andrew said to us was no car tricks in monkey magic, which meant that we had to start looking at any other object. So my route to creativity is I would sit in a coffee shop. I would, would look up, I would look out of the window and I'd write down every object I can see. I would then have a list of the seven plots in magic and I would go OK, part bench right. Can I make someone appear on a part bench? We ended up doing that in Monkey Magic. You know, someone's got a set of headphones on right. Can you do cut and restored with a set of headphones, something like that, and then it is a good. It's an interesting way of getting out of your head and then just listing these possibilities.
Speaker 1:I think one of the other problems in Magic is a huge problem, you see this all the time is people think there's a right way or a best way to do the magic effect. But I again going back to the chicken and duck, I don't think that's true. In magic there are definitely better tricks and worse tricks. There are definitely better tricks and worse tricks, but really I think the skill of the magician is how they handle the discrepancy of the trick. So and the example I give of this I do this in my lectures is if you watch a beginner doing the linking rings, we all know what the discrepancy is One hand looks very stiff and awkward, and why does it never move? But you watch richard ross do the linking rings same method and you haven't a clue what's going on. So I think sometimes in magic we we need to set that method aside, assume it's going to work and let's just focus on doing something different wow, there you go, and that is the perfect cue for anyone who hasn't seen Monkey Magic or Dirty Tricks.
Speaker 3:There are clips of them on YouTube. Go, seek them out, because there's some phenomenal tricks on those shows. It was such a quirky different. I always remember as well Barry and Stuart. I always remember seeing their routine where it was the pill bottles and one of them was sort of narrating over the other one. It was always just really quirky, interesting ideas that I don't think we see a lot of nowadays.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean the truth of it was is it was the pressure from Andrew. You know I came up with the glass top coins through table routine. Uh, that we did on monkey magic, that that was one of the things that got me a bit of a name in the magic world, but that was that. Was uh andrew going? You know, uh, we're gonna do tricks filmed above a table and from below a table and it was also also an idea Anthony Owen had been playing around with because they'd seen poker, poker games where you see the hand through the glass table.
Speaker 1:But I think the best side of Andrew was forcing all of us to be creative and unless you've really got some, you know it was brutal. It was like either be original or I won't have you on the show. It was horrible, horrible pressure. But when you're doing normal gigs, your criteria is different, you know. You know criteria for a corporate gig is, you know, is it instant reset? Is it easy to understand? So the pressure to be creative is not the same. You know it's more. That pressure to be creative is more if you're doing a theater show where you've got the attention of the audience well, there you go.
Speaker 3:That's a lesson for all of us, but that does bring us nicely onto number six. So what did you put in your sixth spot?
Speaker 1:well, in the sixth spot I go against all of the advice I've just given and, uh, one of my favorite tricks is the invisible deck. So I perform the invisible deck all the time. Sean McCree is a great magician, based up in Bolton, lancashire. He was like my mentor when I first started table hopping. He'd already been table hopping for a good 10 years and this was before table hopping was big. Sean McCree was an excellent manipulator. He won all the championships in the late 80s and 90s doing billiard, balls, silks, coins a really classy manip act.
Speaker 1:But then you know the commercial world. He became a close-upper and I got asked, I think by the Bradford Magic Circle, to do a stage spot. I've never done a stage spot. And he goes why don't you do the invisible deck? And I was like I don't even know what that is and I'm terrible at maths and patterns. So one of the reasons I'd never do a mem deck or anything like that is I can't do all of that stuff. But that's why I do slights and I actually really struggle to learn the invisible deck and you know the order et cetera. But it just kills and I don't know why. It just feels very comfortable. It's easy to say, oh, is it a bit of a hacky trick. But whenever I perform it it just easy to say, oh, is it a bit of a hacky trick, but whenever I perform it it just seems to suit me.
Speaker 1:And Andrew Galloway wrote in his book Diverting Card Magic the best way to establish eye contact with an audience is to always start with a self-worker. So if I'm going to go and do some heavy duty sleight of hand, I would open with invisible deck just to relax me, get myself okay. And it's quite an interesting concept of actually using a trip to help yourself to relax on stage. And uh, it's something I do a lot. I, I, um. If you watch me on full pen and tell fullers is a high I, um, if you watch me on full pen and time full is a high pressure gig. If you watch me on that when I did the chicken and duck, really the girls are doing the hard work. And when I did a went on again I did a mind reading prediction and again the girl is doing a lot of hard work. So you gotta pick your battles and I'll often use the invisible deck when I'm feeling nervous.
Speaker 3:Basically, so do you always use it as an opening routine?
Speaker 1:um, not always, but most of the time. If I'm nowadays I tend to do stand-up in in comedy clubs. Now I have the confidence that I can open and just do stand-up for like 10 minutes, but for a long time I would open with the invisible deck and I used it to compare I call it comparing myself into the show, but I think it's really good to. Is there a trick? You know inside out that whenever you're feeling nervous you can go to that, Because once you've been stood in front of them for about four or five minutes, I think the nerves go. And you know the method inside out and you know it's reliable. You're going to be fine.
Speaker 3:It's like you mentioned earlier on. It's very much one of those routines where you know the method is solid, reliable. Therefore you can just focus on whichever presentational angle you're going for. And there's so much literature now on the invisible deck I know that the late great Tom Peterson had an excellent use for it as part of a full routine with three predictions without giving anything away. There's just so much literature on it.
Speaker 1:There's so many creative people doing some amazing things with the same trick versions that I use for close-up is darwin aught's version of do as I do, where he's got a, a deck in side stebbins. So they took that he gives to the person and he asked him to turn one card over face down, and then of course he knows because of the stack what that card is, and then he reaches for an invisible deck. So his version of Do as I Do. It's so strong Again, I never see anyone doing that trick and it's unbelievably strong. That's the version that I'll often use.
Speaker 3:And that is the first trick we've got on your list, which leads us nicely into the tail end of your eight trick. So what did you put in number seven?
Speaker 1:uh, for number seven, uh, gosh, uh, I'm trying to think of uh things I love that are maybe a bit different. So I think this is the suspended animation illusion. Uh, now for those who are uh unfamiliar of this trick, you you'll have seen it. If you were into magic, you've probably seen hands clock perform it. Where it's it's like a sub trunk illusion. But you have, um, a big box that's on a stand and there's a set of steps going up to this stand.
Speaker 1:Your assistant let's assume it's a woman she gets into the box. You then cover the box with a cloth and she sticks her hand out of the box and you can see her hand. You then get her to hold another cloth and then you hold that other end of the cloth. The cloth goes up covering you. You drop, drop the cloth and now she's holding that cloth. You then take the cloth off the box that's suspended in the air and and it's you that is inside of that box. So it's basically the sub trunk illusion performed the wrong way around. So instead of going top to bottom, you're going bottom to top, and it is incredible. I think it's the best illusion invented this century. Personally, I had mine made in Vegas. You know it's an expensive bit of kit. You're only going to do it if you're doing sort of cruise ships or a theatre show. But it's not an easy trip to do. You'll get bashed and battered around, but it's a fantastic illusion.
Speaker 3:I think what is amazing about that as well is you have an element of disconnect from the floor, so you have the height there as well, which gives it that added impossibility to to what's happening.
Speaker 1:I think that. I think that's you've got the. It's actually um. Is it John Taylor, the Australian, australian magician, who invented it? It's a phenomenal bit of invention because I think the two brilliant convincers are yes, firstly, they are lifted off the ground and they're inside of a very narrow plinth of which there's no way anyone can get near them. And also the fantastic what Darwin autists would call a time displacement of the hand that is holding the cloth and that really is so convincing.
Speaker 1:When I performed this in in a show called Impossible in the West End and we had this very theatrical director and he does a lot of opera and he was directing it and it was like show 15 and he went oh, I get it now, but it was. It was show 15 and he'd been watching the rehearsals, he'd seen it. When I dropped the cloth he'd seen everything and it took him that long. It's just a great bit of magical thinking. It's an incredible trick. Yeah, he should win every award there is award there is for that trick yep, it's a great, great choice, and it leads us on to number eight.
Speaker 3:I mean, looking at your list so far, we've got a good mix of large routines and we've got some really nice intimate routines there as well, which is, yeah, it's great. So what did you put in your final spot?
Speaker 1:so that it's so hard to to nail it down. But here is a trick that annoys me and I keep playing around with it, and the trick is the cannibal kings. Now again, what I love about this trick is not many people perform this. When I first got into magic, so I was you know, I don't know, maybe gosh a long time ago now, maybe 15 or so, maybe longer years ago now. It was quite popular then and I think that's because the Roy Walton books were popular and his version of the Cannibal Kings was popular, and I know that in Spain it's a real favourite of Tamariz's. I've seen Tamariz doing it on a clip you can watch on YouTube on Spanish TV, chatting away in Spanish, and he's killing, killing with this trip. And yet I don't see anyone perform it in britain.
Speaker 1:Um, I learned the darwin aughtis version of of the trick uh, which is in um scams and fantasies uh book and his dvds. I learned it because it's so hard. I just thought I want to. I just want to learn this trick because I think sometimes in magic you should learn, um, a complicated trick just to become better at magic. Uh, but I I wanted to come up with a new presentation for the cannibal kings and it's a. It's a routine. I constantly mess around with um and it. It just brings me joy actually trying to come up with new methods for it. So I have come up with a two new methods for that trick and I just I perform it. I used to do it when I got so bored table hopping. I used to do it in the middle of my set, but we're talking a three or four minute long card trick and I used to challenge myself. I was like fuck it, I'm going to make them pay. You know, of course I could do ring fly, but I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1:I'm going to do a three minute card routine, and I also think there's another lesson in magic which is, although we were talking about blunt plots, I think another skill of a magician is making people appreciate quite a subtle plot as well. So I've got the Cannibal Kings there.
Speaker 3:So when you were performing it in your gigs and you said you were trying to push the envelope with what you could get away with, what was the response? Did you feel that you developed it further in that process?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, so the cannibal kings it's, uh, it's a long, a longer routine it's, it's harder to pull off than, say, a chop cup, for example. Um, you've got to pick your battles. I wouldn't do it at a table, say, where they're just not interested. You know, um, a great way to look at all corporate gigs is did you survive, you know, did you get off stage with dignity? A corporate is is, it's not a place to be doing your fizzle max, you know, it is a place to um, um, to just come off stage gracefully, you know. So you're pushing it by doing a routine there. Uh, but if you can take an artistic routine and put them into those real trench type gigs, it will get better.
Speaker 1:Essentially, I just escalated each vanish. So I do three vanishes of an ace, two and three of clubs vanishing between the four kings, and the first one I just do a straightforward vanish. The second one is a complete vanish and then the last one it's in their hands. So each time, you know, is, it's a classic trick that we all know that if you improve the conditions each time, you do the trick, it seems more impossible each time. And then the great version with the, the darwin ortiz version. His big addition to the trick is, once the three cards have vanished from the kings, he brings them all back again interlaced between the kings, which is a it's just a great closer um. I I don't know if you know, darwin was a big fan of film theory and there's a great theory in films that the ending of a movie it should be completely surprising but inevitable, and I think that his finish to the Cannibal Kings, I think it fits that criteria.
Speaker 3:Well, that's a great end gambit. There We've gone from the water torture cell to the Cannibal Kings. That's quite a journey, but it does lead us onto your book. Now you've actually given us a few books throughout your list, actually, you've referenced a few. So we could be going for one of those books, but we might not. So what did you put in your book position?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's a tricky one, but a book. I think I first bought this when I was maybe 17. And I keep going back to it. Last year I went back to it and I keep going back to it and it's Di Vernon's the Further Lost Inner Secrets and written by Stephen Minch but with material gathered by Bruce Savon.
Speaker 1:I think that Bruce Savant was an outstanding magician and I don't think he's quite as well known to us in Britain. But I would encourage anyone to get hold of the Fervor, lot and the Secrets tape series and also Bruce Savant's Ultra Savant DVDs and just watch him perform. Watch Bruce Savant do a double lift. It's unbelievable. A lot of people say, oh, I don't like the dive in and double lift, but watch Bruce Savant do it properly. It's incredible His ability to sell an effect and how clean he was. So really, although that's the book I've written, it's really learning from Bruce Savant.
Speaker 1:But the reason I keep going back to this book is I have this challenge in my head that we all buy loads of magic books and we put them on the shelf and we might skim through them, but they're sort of there on the shelf.
Speaker 1:But I I do think that if you take one book and you try and learn everything in one magic book, you would already be one of the best magicians. You actually already be would. And the reason I say that is years ago I I got the international magic david roth lecture and I actually learned every trick in that because I lived in the countryside in the middle of nowhere. I learned every trick in that in that lecture, and I know that everyone started seeing me as a coin man, as a coin expert really, but really I'd actually just got my money's worth out of one thing and I think that we have. I've probably got 300 books, but it's ridiculous really, you probably need 10. But if you actually learn the stuff in those books so I recently learned the triumph in that book that is a complete self workerworker. Um, so, and it's just a just amazing thinking do you have a favorite effect from that book?
Speaker 1:yeah, I do. Um, um, it's it. Oh gosh, I forgot. It's the my favorite effect in that book and vernon said it was perhaps one of the strongest tricks for layman, so he's been misquoted on this. He said people think he said the changing of a card, but he's actually matching the cards is the trick. So he published two versions, one in the stars of magic, I believe, and then one in um, this book, which is called A Match Made in Cincinnati.
Speaker 1:For those who don't know the plot, somebody picks a card but no one sees it. It's left face down. You then say I'll cut to three of the cards which will tell me what your card is. And you cut to, say, three kings in a row, and then they turn the last card over and it's a two. And then you're like, oh no, the trick's gone wrong. You then wave the two over the three kings and now the other three kings have become the other twos and it I think it's the best version of a magician going wrong. And I think the reason it's the best version of the magician going wrong is when you cut to the three kings. It's actually quite good. You know, it's actually a pretty, it's a pretty good trick and then when you reveal the twos at the end, there's no way they can reconstruct it. It's an amazing magic trick.
Speaker 3:Well, that's a great choice for a book, and one that we haven't had yet, so that's great. We can add that to our archive, but it does bring us to our item. So what did you put in your item position?
Speaker 1:I've got Sharon the Dove Now. I used to perform the pulling the head off the dove routine in comedy clubs and I owned a dove that I got from Scott Penrose called Sharon, and, uh, I actually had three Sharons over the years and I performed this trick for many, many years and then, uh, a year and a half ago, I retired her and Oliver Tabor who, who is a dove magic cat, he's got this big pen and I took her to his farm and I I put her there and she joined a load of dove friends. But, um, I don't know, I just used to love sharon the dove. I miss her. She was a prop and a companion. What can I say?
Speaker 3:Now I'm. I'm just going to say the question that everyone listening is now thinking why Sharon?
Speaker 1:Um, it was just the uh, it was just that classic idea of it was I bought the props for Fielding West's routine and, uh, it was one of the first times I was attempting to write a comedy and it's just an easy joke that you would never call. You know, a Dove, sharon, you know. So it was just that I was trying to think of original. You know, if you get hold of someone's routine, uh, the least you can do is is do it, is do a new set of jokes. You're, you know, it's the least you can do, really.
Speaker 3:So that was it, yeah I've just got this image of you practicing in your local park, though, and just shouting out for sharon because she's flown away that happened to I think it was pete firman in monkey magic.
Speaker 1:He did a dove from silk and we were outside and then it just flew up and it landed in a tree. We were there for ages.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that's a great one. We've not had a dove taken to an island yet, so that's a great one. Now, throughout the podcast, you've referenced your lectures.
Speaker 1:If people want to get hold of you, if they want to book you for lectures, where can they go to? Best place is probably go to my Instagram at Ali underscore cook. I don't do too many lectures because of acting auditions, but I do try and squeeze. I did one at the Magic Circle last week on Coin Magic. I do try and do them from time to time. It's just I don't always know when an acting audition is coming, so that's the only issue I have sometimes, but it's at underscore is Ali underscore cook on Instagram.
Speaker 3:Amazing. Well, thank you so much for giving us your time and your list. It's been a really, really interesting one, probably one of the most diverse ones that we've had today, I would say.
Speaker 1:I would imagine so. Yeah, but you know magic, you've got to. You've got to love it all. You've got to love it all you know. And it's a great way of not getting bogged down. If you've done too many close-up gigs, go and do a kid's show. If you hate kids, go and do a close-up gig. If you hate both of those, go and do a comedy club. I think it's okay to rotate and build your skills.
Speaker 3:And if people want to see you in a show, do you have any like public shows coming up?
Speaker 1:yeah, I do. I. I always list my shows on the website ali cookcom. Now I or I'll list them on facebook and instagram as well, when I'm when I'm doing a public show, I'm working on a public show, but we we don't have dates at the moment.
Speaker 3:Okay, so there we go. We will definitely be getting tickets for your next one, because some of those just sound phenomenal. I have to see them live and hopefully I get to see the shoebox one one day because I think that would be great, the big show, yeah. So thank you again, ali, for coming along, and hopefully everyone will take you up on seeing your shows and lectures.
Speaker 1:Cheers. Thank you very much, thank you.
Speaker 3:And of course, we're going to be back next week. Now we do have our shorter version of this podcast, which is Stranded with a Stranger. If you want to be part of those, you can send in your list to us. Send in your list of eight tricks, one book and one non-magic item that you use for magic to sales at alakazamcouk. Please include a little bio about you and, of course, the reasons that you chose those tricks.
Speaker 3:If you get those in, we'll get one of those recorded on a Monday and, of course, we can have more episodes of it because we have more of them coming in. So Of course, we can have more episodes of it because we have more of them coming in. So, with that being said, we're going to see you next week, for I believe next week is the. This is the last episode of the first season, so we've done 52. Ali's is the very last episode, which means next week we're going to have something special happening and then we're going to kick off season two with a very special guest, which I'm actually recording tomorrow at the time of recording. So we're going to have a new little twist for season two as well. Our guests get to do something else, so stay tuned for that, so we'll see you again next week. Have a great week everyone, so stay tuned for that.
Speaker 2:So we'll see you again next week. Have a great week, everyone. Hello guys, I'm here to talk to you about Alakazam Unlimited. This is the best streaming platform in the world, I'm telling you now. With Alakazam Unlimited, you get access to over 150 magic routines. This is video, performances and explanations. We have card magic, coin magic, kids, magic rope, magic, mentalism, stage parlor, impromptu. We've got you covered all of this for the low price of just four pounds 99 month, and you can cancel at any time. Perfect, if you've got commitment issues. Yes, I'm talking to you guys. You are going to absolutely love it. If you haven't joined the platform already, what the heck are you doing? Alakazam unlimited is a streaming platform that you need to be a part of. Not only that, there is also exclusive content only available on the platform. Check it out now. Alakazamcouk cheers.