Ben Williams

A lot of magicians are taught to copy the script, dress the part, and never take off their shoe. Ben Williams did the opposite and that’s where the magic got good. We sit down with Ben to map the journey from shop counter to full-time pro, and how ditching ego, reading people, and letting effects breathe turned solid tricks into lasting moments.

We walk through the eight workers he’d take to a desert island and the choices behind them: why Ring Flight Revolution becomes a miracle when you slow it down, how Card to Shoe transformed from “never do that” to a signature closer, and the way “Anything” makes prediction feel honest without fussy process. Ben breaks down a Coins Across that escalates cleanly and ends with a personalised photo souvenir, his pragmatic love for Digital Force Bag and how to apply it to the right audience, and a disarming Card in Condom routine built on kindness and careful framing. We revisit his evolution from OCL to Rings for linking cards, same impossible souvenir, smarter method and the un-gimmicked Photo Frame change that fuels upsells, referrals, and framed memories that live on long after the gig.

Threaded through every piece is a clear philosophy: fewer phases, stronger beats, context over dogma, and spectators treated as people first. Ben names ego as the thing he’d banish, then points to tools that actually help, Fitzkee’s The Trick Brain as a creativity blueprint and humble elastic as a versatile engine for movement, vanishes, and clever mechanics. If you want a set that travels from weddings to corporate floors with equal power, and a voice that’s yours, not a borrowed script, this conversation maps the path.

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Ben Williams’ Desert Island Tricks: 

1. Ring Flight Revolution 
2. Card to Shoe
3. Anything 
4. Coins Across 
5. Digital Force Bag 
6. Card in Condom 
7. Rings 
8. Photo Phrame 
Banishment. Ego
Book. The Trick Brain
Item. Elastic

Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk

Chapters

• 0:00 Ego In Magic & Finding Your Voice
• 1:14 Introducing Creator Ben Williams
• 2:57 Early Downloads, Shops, And Learning
• 5:04 Leaving Retail For Full-Time Performing
• 7:05 Bespoke Magic And Weddings Niche
• 9:24 Building An Eight-Trick Island
• 10:59 Ring Flight Revolution: Method & Moments
• 16:16 Letting Effects Breathe, Not Rushing
• 18:28 Card To Shoe And Owning Your Style
• 23:29 Audience Reading And Adaptation
• 25:44 “Anything” Prediction: Structure & Ethos
• 32:10 Clarity Over Process In Mentalism
• 36:10 Coins Across That Builds And Ends Personal
• 41:04 Photos As Souvenirs And Emotional Hooks
• 44:04 Digital Force Bag: Practical, Custom, Human
• 49:54 Adapting Tech To People And Context
• 51:59 Card In Condom: Comedy With Care
• 58:30 Set Construction By People, Not Script
• 1:01:28 Linking Cards: From OCL To Rings
• 1:08:22 Practicality Over Perfection In Workers
• 1:11:12 Photo Frame: Ungimmicked Image Changes
• 1:18:12 Customization, Upsells, And Memorability
• 1:22:31 Diversity Of Effects And Letting Choice Lead
• 1:26:37 Banishment: Ego And Toxic Certainty
• 1:34:04 Book Choice: Fitzkee’s Trick Brain
• 1:38:09 Non-Magic Tool: Elastic & Utility
• 1:40:58 Where To Find Ben & Resources

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

There's so much ego in magic. And what it leads to is people saying, No, you don't want to do it like that. You want to do it like this. You see posts about like, you know, what you should be wearing, you know, and and you get all these bits of advice that you're told you must do. And all you're really dealing with is somebody's ego that is believing that however they do it is the right way and the only way. And it was that that led me to feeling uncomfortable as a performer for so long. It made me be a performer that I wasn't being myself. And and also I think some people want to put people down in the industry to make themselves feel better, to protect themselves. I think there's room for people to be themselves.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14

We have a wonderful creator of magic today. I've actually known him uh since my teens, and there's some rather embarrassing videos on YouTube of me and my teens and uh Ben at the same time, um, who was very gracious coming onto the trailers for those tricks. But he really has been around this industry for an incredibly long time. Um I was just saying to him, I remember having things like Linko and Rings when I was really young. I remember seeing the the first PDFs and video downloads. That was when PDFs and video downloads first came about. It's great to see that these tricks have sort of lasted the test of time. I'm sure some of these are going to be on his list, or I certainly hope they are. And even things like um I was just saying to him anything, which was another one of his brilliant, brilliant prediction uh routines that I think was put out by Penguin Magic, is something that I gigged so, so, so much when it came out because it was brilliant. Um, and I used to do it to my shoe, but because I no longer do it to my shoe, that's the only reason I stopped. Otherwise, I would still be doing it. I think it's a superb, superb trick. Now, I think um I've said too much already about uh who he is and what he is, because hopefully we'll find out about some of these in the future. But I'm very, very excited to have him on here. It is the wonderful Ben Williams. Hello, Ben. Oh, hello. So it's very lovely. Well, when we think about how how back uh how far back we go now, I I mean I remember filming those videos when I was, I think I was about 18, either 17 or 18, um, which feels a very long time. And you worked in a magic shop, which is where we we filmed them. And like I say, that was when things like video downloads first came about. PDFs were quite big, um, and then video downloads started to come out, and that's sort of you were one of the first people that started really thinking about that style of product making.

SPEAKER_01: 3:14

Yeah, yeah, I think I think it it made everything uh it kind of took out a middleman or something, you know, like not having to produce for DVD or something, um, not having to, you know, speak to a publisher about actually having a physical book made, you know. Uh it but we were in the days back then of Windows Media Player and compressing all of your video software and all of the horrible stuff that comes with it. Now you can just literally stick your phone on a kitchen worktop, film something, and the sound looks good, the sound sounds good, the video looks good, like you know, it was a whole different era back then. Like get your camcorder out and set it up.

SPEAKER_02: 3:56

Absolutely. Now you used to work in the magic shop, didn't you? So you worked for merchants for uh I think it was quite a long time in the end.

SPEAKER_01: 4:04

Ten years. Ten years I was there. Yeah, yeah, it was a long time. It was uh yeah, it was great, it was good. I I learned so much. Um, you know, just having access to new releases, um, you know, the classics and books and stuff, and I, you know, I know so much more magic than I'll ever be able to perform because you had to learn certain things to talk to people about. Over time, it made me really understand what kind of um what I liked and what and and also helped me with the creativity. I think when you're being creative, the more knowledge you have as a foundation, the better. Um, you know, like because you can you've got a whole tool belt if you like. And the bigger your tool belt, the more jobs you can do, kind of thing, if you like. Um so so yeah, um, it gives you gives you the proper tools to to then move forward. So yeah, yeah, it was a good time. It was good. Now what prompted you to leave? Yeah, so um I got to a point where I was having my second child, and I had worked my way up to the highest position I was ever gonna have in the magic shop. And I was just, you know, I I parenting kicked in, like adulting kicked in and was just like, right, you need to push, you need to progress more. And having a you know, a solid nine to five is great, it's lovely having that security, having that monthly pay and everything like that, but there is a limit to your time, to your energy, to your free time, you know, to your creative bandwidth, if you like, you know, in your brain. And and so yeah, it was just a case of right, I'm just going to because uh essentially I got the job in the magic shop as a way, just like uh it was I was just doing two days a week, and it was just like, oh, I'll just do this until my gigs get enough that I will, you know, start really doing lots of gigs, and then I don't need to shop anymore, kind of thing. And that was the whole idea, and then that two days turned into three days, which turned into a full week, which then you know turned into a managerial job at the at the physical shop and stuff like that. And uh, and yeah, yeah, it was just yeah, like it suited me amazingly, it was great. And every time I thought about leaving to progress myself, I was like, Yeah, but I'm learning so much, I'm doing all this, and and yeah, um suddenly 10 years went by and I was like, okay, second kid's coming along now, I need to do something, and uh, and yeah, so I I sort of I left the shop and uh and that was what probably 2016. I left the shop, or maybe the Christmas of 2015, and um, and yeah, and I just pushed hard to go into the wedding market because I live in a lovely part of the world. There's loads of lovely wedding venues around here, and I was just like, right, I'm if if I don't do this now, I'm not gonna do it. So I did it, and I I made sure I had I made sure I had a couple of months' worth of money in my bank that I'd saved up, and then I just hit the ground running and just spoke to a few people that I knew were doing well. Um, Lee Smith really helped me out at the time. Um, and because I just I called him up when I was thinking of leaving, and I was like, can you actually make a living out of just performing? Is this possible? Am I being a fool? And we had a good long chat, and uh and he totally reassured me. And I just yeah, hit the ground running, basically, and then just push, push, push, push, pushed. And over time, um really cemented myself in the wedding market, and then I started to diversify myself because I do a lot of bespoke magic, so I create unique magic. I know a lot of people go, oh, I'll do a special trick for the bride and groom, and that special trick is like anniversary walks or something. Like the tricks that I devise for people that book my bespoke packages are like unique to them, you know. And so so yeah, that's allowed me to to carve my own little niche, if you like, in the wedding market, and uh, and it also helps with uh corporate because you can obviously transfer all these, and uh, and yeah, so so yeah, that's that's what I've been doing.

SPEAKER_02: 8:23

Amazing. Now, being around magic for so long, I'm guessing that your list may have been a difficult one to put together.

SPEAKER_01: 8:33

Yeah, I honestly, yeah, yeah, I don't uh I found this harder than putting a lecture together or putting a show together, because yeah, it's it was just really part of it is uh trying to whittle down to what really matters, um, but then also it's how do I how do I zone in on just one area, you know, like like you say, if I said, oh, I'm gonna take a deck of cards, then that could be thousands of tricks, but really you want the one trick. You don't want like the deck of cards so that I can do thousands of tricks. So, so you know, it's it's trying to work out what what would I feel naked without at a gig kind of thing. And there's a few things that I've left off there, because there's eight is just not enough. You know, I I I know some some working magicians go, yeah, you need six tricks, and that's all you need to do, and you do it to everybody, but I d I just don't work like that. I have I have a huge range of different tricks, and I like to chop and change, and how how I perform changes to who I'm performing to. I'm not I am not the same person to everybody. I'm you know, I and I and I feel that's really important. I think too many performers are like, this is what I do, and this is how I present myself. And I think what you're missing out on by doing that is the connection that you gain from treating people like people instead of spectators.

SPEAKER_02: 10:13

Okay, well, if that doesn't wet the whistle, I don't know what will. I'm excited to get into this. So if this is your first time listening to the podcast, the idea is that we're about to maroon Ben on his very own magical island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks, banish one item, take one book and one non-magic item he uses for magic. Any particulars like who's there, what's there, are there animals there, are there people there, all that good stuff? We do not mind. This is in Ben's own imagination. So, Ben, let's go to your island and find out what you put in position number one.

SPEAKER_01: 10:45

I mean, these are in no specific order apart from what I wrote them down. So it's not like the first one is the most um most necessary, but I think they're all, you know, they're all pretty necessary for me. But the first one I would say is ring flight revolution. There's a lot of talk in the magic community, and there always has been about ring flight. Like, oh, you should not do that. Like a lot of people poo-poo it because the danger of borrowing something that is precious to somebody, or the horror stories where you hear something's gone wrong. Um however, I feel that um firstly, the ring flight revolution prop is a solid prop. It is very well constructed, it's very well built, it's very reliable. Um I think it's um I remember having the original ring flight pouch by Ronjo or something like that, and it's like a little leather pouch which houses the the real and the thing inside, should I say, and and then it had this tiny little clip, and this tiny clip would only only fit like a dainty lady's finger ring, and it was prone to kind of breaking and stuff like that. Um, but what uh Dave Bonza has done with Ring Flight Revolution is made everything solid, everything reliable, everything really well made. And if you know Dave, you know he he doesn't compromise. So I feel very confident in his props. Um I've been using Ring Flight Revolution for years and years now, probably over a decade. Over a decade. Um and the the reason why I think I can't live without it is because it's insanely magical. Um you you take someone's ring, and and I I also I do it a little bit differently. You see a lot of people doing this crotch shot where they put the ring on their finger and they hold it down by their crotch, and then they do this whole kind of fiddly thing, pull it off my finger, and then you bring it up to your face. Like I don't I don't do that. I simply hold the ring, um, it's ready to go, and then at a certain point in time, I just let it go. And so they believe nothing has happened, and this ring is just in my hands, my sleeves are rolled up, and everything, and it's already done. Everything is done. The rest is just hamming it up, and I can then have this pure vanish. It's not I've put this here in this hand, and then I've grabbed the pen or I've done anything like that. It's it's just I'm holding your ring, you've seen it, and I can reprogram them to make them think that my hand has always been away from my body at all times, um, which makes it even more impossible. You show the ring is gone. And I I love that moment, um because they're expecting it to go. Okay, it's not like a shock, they're not scared, you know. Uh if they're scared, you're not reassuring them in that in that they don't have faith in you, okay. Um so so I think that's a point. Um, but they're expecting it to go, it does go, and I love that moment because I I ride in that in that space where you have you too many people, I think, rush too quickly at this point. They go, it's not in my hands, you know, um, but it's on my keys. Or they make a joke out of it, like, oh, I said if this goes wrong, then I would give you my car. And they pull their car keys out, and they're like, Oh, look, there it is, kind of thing. Like it's a it's an insanely magical vanish. So let it breathe, let it be magical. You know, hold your hands up, show your hands empty, show them back to front, show that it's not up your sleeve. So I cancel out everything that they are thinking it could be. All right. And then um, also whilst reprogramming them making it more impossible. And then and only then, when everything starts, when that starts to settle down, do I then I have a I have a fun moment with some people, depending on who I'm performing to, where I just let that awkwardness sit until it becomes really awkward, and that makes it quite comedic in that moment. If not, I just really ham up the impossibility of it, and then I just pause a little bit and slow it down, and then I say, Don't worry though, it is perfectly safe. And even though my hands haven't been anywhere near, it's in my pocket. Not just this pocket, my back pocket. And that's when I show my hands empty both sides, and I go, not only is it in my back pocket, but it's attached to my keys. And then you just let that moment breathe. So you get an insanely magical vanish, an insanely magical reproduction, and it's something which is sentimental to them or that you know, uh is theirs, you know. So you they know you haven't messed with this. That is their ring. It's not anything that you could have pre-prepared or anything like that, it's just a beautiful piece of magic. And the the ring flight revolution prop is so well made. Um, that you know, I I I have a couple of them. I can't uh and if I go to a gig without it, I'm a bit like, oh what? What am I gonna do? You know, because it it just it adds a different element. It's not a card trick, it's not a coin trick, it's not a routine, it's it's just a pure bit of magic, and I love that.

SPEAKER_02: 16:15

Well, it's a great choice. Now, do you use it as part of a like routine or are you using this as a standalone effect?

SPEAKER_01: 16:23

It is standalone. Um, I I have a thing, I I try to make my routines as singular focus as possible. Like if I have a routine, there's like maybe a journey to it. Um but if somebody were to recall that routine, it it is a journey to one singular destination, and that's the important thing. Um, you know, for example, if I were to do um this isn't on my list, but I die, I I do it a lot and a lot, and I know a lot of magicians do it, but like if I was to do omni deck, um a lot of magicians go, This is my my finale to my ambitious card routine. I do I do omni deck whenever it suits. And uh, and the whole idea is that I used to do card, you know, double lift, transposition, card to mouth, card to pocket, end up with omnideck, and it's like this flurry of like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, magic, magic, magic, magic. But then I realized that what I'm actually what I'm doing there is I'm I'm showing my insecurities because I'm using each trick, each different phase to kind of like I'm I'm not letting any one phase breathe because I'm like more, more, more, more, more. Hit them with it, hit them with it, hit them with it, hit them with it. And and really, you don't need to do that. Um, so the more and more confident as a performer I've got, the more and more I've taken things out and reduced things and made things more direct and simple. And and also in this day and age, uh something super quick, super impossible, is is good for attention spans. You know, I don't, I don't like say I adapt to people and I see when people are getting a bit tired with things or something like that, you know, or I know when somebody wants to be bam, bam, bam, hit me with it. Because some people want to go on a journey with you, some people don't. And if you're not reading that in your audience, then uh then you're you're missing a trick, really. You're missing building rapport with everyone. And you know, I you know, so so yeah, it is just a standalone thing, it's a quick, impossible piece of magic. Um, and yeah, yeah, I I'm yet to find anything. I do I do other ring stuff, I do different ring stuff in my show and everything like that, but this is one which yeah, I'd I'd say I've done it over 10,000 times. You know, it's not just a thousand timer, it's a 10,000 timer kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02: 19:00

Amazing. Well, that's a great one in at number one, and let's move on to number two.

SPEAKER_01: 19:06

All right, so this is another um real worker, it's another thousand timer, and that is my card to shoe routine. Um, I don't know. I'm starting to look and like maybe yeah, yeah. I love the impossible location. Um there is it it's it it just screams magic to spectators. Um, this thing was here and now it's there, you know, like ring flight, it's it's there, it was now not there, and now it's somewhere impossible. So the card shoe is like that. Um and it is it's it's part of something that I love because it's something that I really embraced when I embraced being my own performer. Um I when I first started magic, I was uh what I call a child of Blaine, as I'm sure a lot of people were when they saw David Blaine on the street magic and went, Wow, god, I need to do that. Okay. And when I first started, I thought that's how you would present magic. Like, you know, watch like magic's happening kind of thing, and that you like everyone's gonna be, wow, magic. And it's just not like that. So many people are like, especially when you first start to learn, you're showing your friends magic, and they are like, sharp, then I know you're not magic. Like, show me the trick. Come on, what, what come on, I know, I know magic's not real. And and you get a lot of that, and as you're growing as a performer, you know, you probably get more of that than you would as a as a you know, seasoned performer. Well, you definitely do, because you haven't got the chops, because you're still learning. And um, and so when I started learning, there's a lot of there's a lot of ego in magic. There's a lot of this is how you do things, these are the rules of magic. How you know, like whether it's what you're dressed in, what you should wear, or whether you how you should hold yourself, how you should, you know, all these kinds of things. And I watched uh like videos, VHS tapes, and I would perform, I would use the pattern that Sankey used, or that Daryl used, or you know, uh and and I would be like, Well, that's how you perform the trick, you know, and so what I ended up finding was that I felt uh wrong. I didn't feel comfortable as a performer, I didn't feel I just felt lacking, like I don't know. And I was always looking outwards for what is the thing that's going to make this make me feel good, and and really it was ignoring all that. Stop listening to those those bits of advice and do what is in your heart, do what feels right to you. And card and shoe is one of those things that I started doing because I loved the idea, always wanted to do it, but got told categorically that you should never take your shoe off, especially at a paid gig because it's disgusting, people will complain, it's like people don't like it, it's bad manners, all these kinds of things, like tons of you know, you should be classier than that, and all these kinds of things. And just one day I was like, I'm gonna do it, and I started doing it, and the reactions you get are fantastic, and I've done this in every situation possible. Um, and and now I've got it honed down to this um again, I can do it incredibly quick like ring flight. So they select a card, they sign a card, they they choose the shoe. I've got a really fun process for them to choose which shoe it turns up in, and then it's in the shoe, and it's folded, and it's and it's super quick like that. Or it can be as a finale to a little sort of card bit or something like that. But um, but really it's it's been with me since I chose to be myself as a performer, and uh, and so it's got a little special place in my heart for that.

SPEAKER_02: 23:16

Well, I think that's uh a great point to make. And earlier on in the podcast, I mentioned another one of your routines, which is called anything. Um, I used to do that to shoe, and it gets such an incredible reaction because I think it's the most unassuming place for something to appear. Uh and when you look down at your shoe, they connect the dots before you say anything. Um, and the reality sets in and you see you see it on their face. Um so I think it's a really valued place to to make something appear, um, regardless of whether you know one might think it's appropriate or not, because we make things come out of our mouths and you know, yeah, all sorts of places.

SPEAKER_01: 24:09

What I've found through performing a lot is that people aren't as offended as you think they're going to be. Nothing is ever as bad as you envision it's going to be. You know. Um it just your mind is a crazy place, and your ego's either gonna tell you you're the best at something or the worst at something. And it's either gonna be the best situation's gonna happen or the worst situation's gonna happen. And in reality, neither of those really ever happen or rarely happen. You know, you end up somewhere in the middle, and you just gotta go for it, you know. Like, I'm gonna make sure I have socks on if I do this trick. If I pull something out of my shoe, I'm gonna have socks on. My shoes are, you know, if I'm wearing trainers, they're you know, they're clean. Like, you know, it's if I'm at a gig, my shoes are nice. Um, you know, uh, and and yeah, I just I don't know, there's just something about it. It's just it's a talking point as well. People go like, I can't believe it. His car was in my shoe. If you go on my Google reviews page, then you'll see people talk about it. Like, I still don't get how my card ended up in your shoe. Like it, it really is a memorable thing, and that's what I want. I want people, I want singular moments of focus that people can remember and recall and tell other people, and it sound impossible to them to.

SPEAKER_02: 25:32

Well, as well as allowing you to take that to your island, we're gonna give you some shoe deodorant as well, just for good measure. Just for good measure.

SPEAKER_01: 25:42

My shoes smell like roses, mate. But this is the thing, right? Uh, like I'm you get some people when you when you show the card is in the shoe, and they their hand is in the shoe before you even know it. They don't they don't care at all. And then you got some people that don't want to touch the card, and that's funny in its own right, and I'm never gonna push it on them or do that. Like, if I I'll show it's theirs and they'll put it away in my pocket. That's the vibe I get, you know. Like I say, I adapt to people, so so it doesn't ever have to be offensive or like, oh, why are you doing this to me? Like, you know, if if they're six foot away and you pull it out of your shoe, you show it's theirs and put it away. What's what's there to be offended by? What's there for them to gross out about? Nothing.

SPEAKER_02: 26:29

It's a great one at number two. You know, we've gone from a ring flight to a card in shoe. Um, and you did mention that you do have a thing for things for impossible locations. So maybe we've got more coming up. We'll find out soon. Let's find out what you put in number three.

SPEAKER_01: 26:44

So at number three, it's funny, you mentioned it as well. Um, and and by all means, I'm there's gonna be there's quite a lot of of stuff which is which is my own stuff, because I I take lessons from everything and every one, but I like to be creative and I like to sort of put my own spin on things. So anything is my third choice, which is a prediction routine. So Anything is um it's a routine that came about from from working. There was, oh, who was it? There's a is it Paul Vhill, I think, in Vegas. He came out decades ago with a trick where you had a thought of card, and on the back of the card was a thought of word that was written, and he had a great, great little method for it. Um, and I loved the idea, and I started playing around with this idea of trying to work out how to do this. And I saw a trick by uh Jay Sankey called graffiti, many, many years ago, where you had a spectator's name appear on the back of a playing card. And there are a couple of little things like I had a lot of Sankey thinking. I love Sankey, he's he was really pivotal to me becoming a creative magician. And I had this whole routine where I had somebody write a thought, you know, a word down, and then I had somebody else choose a card, and then I made a bogus prediction, which was like something like look in the wallet or something like that, and then out of my wallet was a duplicate card that they had chosen with a different coloured back, and the word that they had thought of was written on there, and and it was in my head on paper, it was all like wow, this is all totally impossible. But in reality, when performing it, there was a lot of process, there was a lot of like it wasn't there wasn't real clarity, and and also I'm I you know you work in different environments, and if you're a mentalist doing solid like um work where you are um having somebody write down a thought which you then reveal, like fair play to you, because like I work in environments with pink lighting and blue lighting and dark and loud and all this and other, and I'm just like how how do you how do you do that kind of thing? And I don't want to tip the method, but I think we all know what I'm talking about. Um, and so the beginning of this whole routine, having somebody write something down and then you know, secretly putting it away, and it just it was just a process that I wanted to eliminate. And so when I when I joined the dots with this graffiti routine, um there's a section where he doesn't there's no secret to getting the information. Like somebody just m says something and he then uses that information later on down in the line. And if you play it right, they forget that they even said that. And I thought, and I was like, oh, do you know what that's that's really interesting? And I thought, why not just take the whole secret thought out of the process? And just get some information through talking to people, which you can then predict. Because I've realized I'm not a mentalist. I'm not a mind reader. I'm not a palm reader. I'm not a psychic performer of any sorts. The idea that somebody can write a thought down or have a thought and I can then look at them and figure that thought out, whether it's by psychological reading or by mystical means, just does not suit my character at all. Doesn't suit me. But if I can predict something, that that just for me seems really different. And so the way I structured this routine is that you get whatever information you can just through conversation, which you then end up, they don't see this prediction coming at the end. So it's so when you you give them a small little effect, so I use um I do uh what we what we call a cross cut, um, and so that's part of the routine. And so I do a cross cut and get that, and that's that's an effect in itself for the spectators, and then wham, you smack them with a massive prediction at the end that they don't see coming. Um and I love it because I can do it quickly and you know almost comedically, or I can take my time with it and make it a performance piece. Um but it's it's something, again, which I've done so many times, and it's about the only piece of mentalism I really do. Um and and it just suits my performing style. I love that the prediction at the end is not seen, they don't expect it at all. If you perform it right, then they don't see it coming, and then that's uh yeah, it makes it all the better. So yeah, yeah, and also if like if you want to pull the prediction out, sure you can. But there is you can literally you can do this with a couple of bits of paper, a pen on the fly, and uh and still have it work. So, yeah, that would be my third choice in the thing.

SPEAKER_02: 32:13

Well, I'm glad it's on your list. Like I say, I I did this an awful lot um when it first came out, and I thought it was just a superb trick. It's so well routined, and if I remember rightly, I think the idea behind it is you literally just say, if you were to say anything now, what would you say? Yes, and then you brush over that moment as if it doesn't matter, and then it comes back around later.

SPEAKER_01: 32:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. And so, yeah, that's exactly so. I say, Do you know the difference between influence and mind reading? And so there's two ways I can get into it. One, do you know the difference between influence and mind reading? Like if I was a mind reader, which I'm not, but if I was a mind reader, or if you were to say a word right now, it would be and you prompt them to say something and and you get it wrong because you blur out a different word, and you go, see, I'm not a mind reader. If I was, I'd have said the word you were about to say, right? I'm not, but I do use influence to give the illusion of mind reading, and then I take them off on a tangent and take them away from it, and so so that it just seems like uh uh something leading up until this other part in the trick, and the other part of the trick takes over and they forget that this even never happened at the beginning, which works so well coming back to it and slapping them with it at the end because they just don't see it coming. And uh, and yeah, the other way that I'd start is I'd go, do you know this read a mind? It's pretty hard. Like, do you want to read my mind right now? Like, I'll I'll tell you what, I'm thinking of a word, try and read my mind. I'm gonna go three, two, one, and when when I say one, we'll both say the word and we'll see what you get. And then you go three, two, one, you both blur out, well, and they're gonna be different. You go, see, it's really hard to read a mind. That's why I don't do it. But I do use influence as a way to give you the illusion of mind reading, and uh, and yeah, and again, it's take it's getting that information and then taking them away on a tangent. And what you also find as well is that if you're performing this to um like a group or uh in a show on a stage or something like that, this thought that they have everybody knows. So when the prediction comes out, you get this mass reaction because everybody knows, oh God, that works, oh god, this, you know, and everybody's on the same bar. But uh, if you if you do it with a secret way of gaining the information, not only does that give more attention to it and they expect something to come of that at the end, but also you're then riding the wave of how well this person reacts to that piece of information being shown. Because if they are, you know, if they don't, you know, everybody's reaction then is dependent upon this one person's reaction, if you like. And uh, and yeah, so so yeah, I I just found get that information out in the open, uh, but but make it not seem like it's anything to do with the trick. It just it just suited me, really. So so I I love it, and and I've and I know like I know a lot of people have done this routine. Um the messages that I've had, um, it's been selling for maybe a decade now, and and still people buy it, and uh, and I still get messages from people, and I feel a bit like, oh, but I, you know, all I did was routine some things from other people and put it all together and make it fit me. So, you know, I'm fully aware you stand on the shoulders of giants, and that there's been a lot of work in this in this area um by other people. So it's not my trick per se, but is how I've routined this this uh this premise, this um this principle in in mentalism.

SPEAKER_02: 35:57

Well, it's a great win one in that number three. So let's head to a number four. What's in your fourth spot?

SPEAKER_01: 36:03

Oh, okay. In fourth spot, I will my coins across routine. Let's talk about that. So um I from when I first started doing magic, I did a lot of card stuff. And any coin stuff was like I was using something like a coin unique or very badly doing bitten coin or something like that. And coin tricks always really interested me. But I I never I never had the chops or the confidence to do a coin kind of flurry or routine, because if you just make a coin vanish and you do nothing else, then it's not gonna take long before the spectator kind of realizes what's going on or something like that, because there's a process to it and it becomes a hide-and-seek kind of thing. Um but uh when I was working for merchant, I used to gig with the owner DOM, and he does David Ross Coins Across as a staple of his routine. And I really I really liked it, and so I started playing around with it myself. And um Daniel Garcia had a coins across on his Garcia project, which had which was like the David Ross Coins Across, but it had a different just a different flow to it, and it had a different ending to it, which was nice. Um, and I am lucky enough to know a wonderful magician and very eccentric person called Maximilian, um, Maximilian Magic, and more Max Somerset. And I remember 10, 12 years ago, went out to lunch with him in Fulham in this weird, swanky London kind of cafe bar. Um, and we sat there drinking wine and eating long into the point of the afternoon when they'd shut after lunch, and they just kind of like let us sit there. And I remember seeing him doing uh his coins across to the owner of the cafe. And he he had he put in like a coin underwatch, coin and shoulder. It was like it wasn't just like this coin went from this hand to this hand, or this hand to your hand, this hand to your hand, this hand to your hand, and now you put you know, there was like there was some fluidity to it, and so I I kind of took that away from it as well. So my my coins across routine now is each phase is slightly different, each phase builds. So the first one, the coins go from one hand, or one coin goes from my left hand to my right hand, okay. Um, but I've honed it now so much so that I realized if you keep your hands palm upwards, so you show four coins on your left hand and you close your hands and you keep your hands palm upwards, and then you open your hands, and now you only have three in your left hand, and there's one in your right, that's so much stronger than turning your hands palm down at any given point. Um, it also allows you to use Ramsey or is it capsule, Ramsey subtlety, so that you can seemingly show both hands completely open and still have the transposition happen. The second one then happens onto the spectator's hand. So I then talk about them not just seeing the magic but then feeling the magic. And then the third one either ends up underneath their watch or on their shoulder, depending on the situation and and who I'm working with. And then the fourth one they make disappear from their own hand, and it and the the coin appears in a different location. Um the coin appears, I'll I'll just tell you, the coin appears printed on the on the signed photo. So so yeah, it's um it's there's no there's no repetition, it builds, it builds, and and then the final bit happens in their hands, and and then they end up with a with a signed photo with the coin printed on it, and of course all your details are on the back of it. So that helps.

SPEAKER_02: 40:31

So where did the idea for it going to a photo come from? Because that feels like a really different kind of ending.

SPEAKER_01: 40:39

Yeah, yeah. See, this is why this is part of what was hard, because I I love sharing my magic, I love teaching magic, and I and I am excited to share things that I know work and and that I want to share, but then there's also things that I do that I know are truly valuable and they're mine. And I have for the past was since 2016, really hammering in the weddings, like as I mentioned earlier, I do a lot of bespoke magic, and what that pushed me to do was figure out different ways of doing tricks, and so I have I have got a whole repertoire of tricks with photos, and um I've been toying with my head do I do a masterclass with this, do I teach people this? You know, do I keep it all to myself? And basically, um this ending spiraled from that, from a load of creative work doing different tricks with different photos with photos of people, and uh, and yeah, I think just one day I was like, Oh, what if you've got something in the photo? And so I started doing that. And then what happened was I was only doing these tricks for bespoke packages that were booked, so like for people and weddings, some corporate, but mainly weddings that book this bespoke package. And I then started to really feel gutted when people didn't book the bespoke package, not because of the extra money, but because I knew I wasn't going to be doing those tricks, and I know how different these tricks feel. Like you, you know, you do a card trick, and it's you can get a great reaction. You do the exact same card trick but using their photos, and you get a very different reaction. For some reason, you know, cards, coins, they go, oh, sleight of hand, all the magician knows some fun stuff. You do it with a photo, and suddenly sleight of hand isn't a method in their mind. They're just like, What is this Harry Potter stuff that you're doing here? I don't understand. And so, so yeah, that was um that was a a kind of moment for me where I was like, Do you know what? I'm leaving something on the table here if I'm not introducing this stuff to my own magic. And then so I do stuff with my own photos, or with like my business card is essentially a photo of me with my details on the back. But that allows me to do any of these same tricks with my own photos if I want to in a regular gig. So so yeah, that that it kind of stemmed from there, stem from just me creating magic for other people and then going, oh bloody hell, actually that I really like that, you know, and oh god, the reactions are really good as well, and uh and yeah, and then sort of translating that and putting that into my own stuff instead of just in bespoke stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 43:37

Great. Well, it sounds like a really interesting way to end the coin routine. Uh, I think it sounds really interesting. So if that's what you're holding back, I wonder what else you're holding back from us. Hmm. Maybe we'll never find out. Well, let's find out what you put in number five.

SPEAKER_01: 43:53

Number five is not mine, but I use it so much I couldn't put it in, I couldn't not put it in, and that's digital force back. Um there is so much app magic. Um there is so much great stuff that you can do with phones. Uh but I feel um we're coming to a point now where where people don't trust technology the same. Like they're just like, okay, so you're just doing something fancy, like, you know, people are wise to apps. Um, but Digital Force Back doesn't seem like an app. Um if you if it is if you do it just as a standalone trick, which I do do sometimes, it gets a really strong reaction. Like forcing a celebrity with a with a with a shopping item or something, and then showing that you predicted that on their on on you know with their phone or some you know, Google search on their phone, it's really, really strong. Um, you are gonna end up once in a while having somebody kind of like go, oh, well, is it is it just an app? Or or they think that you've got 10,000 different lists on your phone, you're secretly picking the right one. Um, you know, but you get that. People guess at your methods all the time, and sometimes they're gonna guess bang on. What I like about DigitalForce Bag is it doesn't use the web. You don't need the internet connection, it's solid, it's direct, and it's customizable as well. Um, so it allows me, I use it a lot with bespoke work. Um, I use it as something just in my back pocket in case I, you know, I want to do something different. Um, you know, like I say, I don't just do card magic or just do coin magic or you know, I I chop and change. So so having this in my back pocket knowing that um, like for example, if you if if you were just to do a digital force bag prediction uh and Google that, you if you have a young crowd of young men and women, like go, oh, can I Google something on your phone? They're like they're on their phones all the time. That's like relatable to them. So so that's a great kind of thing. I wouldn't necessarily I wouldn't do it for an older person, you know, necessarily, like you know, a 60-year-old couple sat there, oh, could I Google something on your phone? Like it's not gonna have the same kind of relatability to them. So, so yeah, it's um it's something which I have in my back pocket for moments, but it also allows me to have a wide range of things that I can force um at a moment's notice. I can customize it and and yeah, yeah, it's uh it's solid, it works. It's if you play it right, it doesn't seem like it's a part of the trick. Um, you know, and and yeah, I again it's one of these I've tried to kind of like choose things that really are value, truly valuable to me, and and and have either progressed how who I am as a performer, or just things that I literally feel a bit naked without. And this is one of those things, like it's just it's solid, it's there, it's reliable, and uh, and I know for the right people it's it's it's exactly what is needed. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 47:19

Now you mentioned a second ago, you said the word bespoke. Does that mean that you use it differently every time, or do you have a set routine with it?

SPEAKER_01: 47:29

Um no, no, I use it differently. Um it depends. Um I have got I've got routines where it's part of it, um, and it's always that bit in the routine. Um, but like for example, I might use it with anything as as the the the fourth aspect in anything. Um it's uh I might just I don't know, I might start a routine like like when they work, you can any any worker, if you haven't done this, then you probably I don't know, I don't know. But for me, I might start a routine, and then as I'm starting the patter, right, here's an example. I go, let's try a little um prediction. Say I know I've got a duplicate card sorted for a revelation, okay? And then I go through my deck and I start start the patter for the trick, and I'm trying to find that force card, and I realize, oh God, somebody signed that card two two groups ago, and now I don't have that force card. But now, now I that's the sort of time where I might just pivot and go, actually, I'll tell you what, do you mind if I Google something on your phone? And it's like inspiration is just kind of struck rather than I've made a mistake and I'm trying to cover it up. And so, so having digital force bag in my back pocket like that is great. But yeah, it's if I use it for bespoke, I can force anything that I want. Um, because I can make a list of anything that I want, really. And so, so yeah, I've got a few, I've got a few lists where you can just chuck one item on. I've got a list of a hundred pretty shite gifts, and uh, and so you so yeah, that's great if you're doing a private party for a birthday, you know. Uh, but then you can change the title to pretty shite wedding gifts if you're at a wedding, you know, and and so you can customize just chuck and change little bits of it very easily. It's very quick to to adapt and change. Um, yeah, and and yeah, you could even, if you see something, um, which you can use at a gig and you want to force that, then uh, you know, like I I've uh just for example, taken things like um straws or wooden forks or stuff and body loaded it into people's pockets. So they choose a wooden fork off the list, and then you go, hold your hand up, reach down into your left jacket pocket, and they reach down, they pull out a wooden fork from their own pocket, and they're like, What? How the hell did that get there? You know, it just it enables you to just be free and easy and it's so adaptable, it's so easy to use, it works in every environment. Like, uh yeah. For me, that's a what's not to like about it kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 50:19

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SPEAKER_02: 51:16

Amazing. Well, I'm sure it's one that a lot of work in pros uh listening uh use daily. So I think it's a great choice. And leads us to number six. So what's in your sixth spot? Six.

SPEAKER_01: 51:29

Um, so six is um I can't I can't call the name of it because it's a swear word. Don't want to get you flagged, but it's my recent routine I just put out, which is my card and condom. So this is another impossible location kind of thing, but and it's another, oh you can't do that. Um, well, actually, I'm going to kind of thing. I'm gonna work it. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, then I will move on. But this works. Um, so essentially a card is chosen, it vanishes from the deck, and it ends up sealed in the condom. Um, but that was the first iteration of the trick. Um and I used to do things like, oh, uh it's in my wallet, and I'd pull the condom out and be like, oh god, sorry, I didn't mean to pull that up and wait, oh wait, actually, this doesn't feel right. And then check it out, it's sealed, isn't it? It doesn't feel like what should be in there, and then they open it up and the card's in there. But um I um what did I say? So there's a couple of performers who do things like SN's a classic for it. Um, like um what's his name? Paul Martin. Paul Martin. That's the one. Sorry, Paul. Um, but yeah, he uh like seeing them doing things like reaching into spectators' pockets, like Sien's a classic. He'll go, think of a card, and they'll reach into their pocket and he'll pull out like a pack of like a Viagra pot or something like that. And it's just like, oh, and and and I love that. So I started doing that with the condom, and it was just fun, and then I've now added in you so the way the routine works. So I asked them uh I think I think this is important to to mention as well. I don't ever do this as a way to hit on ladies to do anything like that. I've never used magic to hit on a lady in my life because I've been married and and been with my wife since before I could even hold a deck of cards. Um, so so yeah, I've never had that that you know um that part of magic. Um so and I mainly, I will only really ever show this to or perform this on men, uh, because I don't want it to seem like I'm hitting on a woman or anything like that. The only time I'll ever perform it to a woman is if the woman, if I get that vibe because she is talking filthy potty mouth, you know, and then it's like right, okay, you'll love this kind of thing. But the the structure of the routine has nothing to do with hitting on somebody. So I say, you know, if you were to name a card, what would it be? And they say, four spades, and I'll reach into their inside pocket and I'll go, just inside your pocket, we have, and I'll pull out a condom. I'm like, and then I act embarrassed. I'm like, because they're a bit shocked by it. Other people are gonna laugh. You don't want them feeling like they're laughing at them. You kind of want to be so I I kind of act like, oh, I'm so sorry, mate. Um and then and then I switch it back and I go, Oh, hang on, hang on, hang on, way, way, way, mate. So I draw the attention away from the person back onto me. I say, Oh no, it's not theirs. I know it's not theirs because it's regular. Yeah. And then I shake the condom and it turns into a king size condom. I go, because we all know he's king size. So now what you've done is you've gone from this embarrassing moment for this person to actually bigging them up. So they've gone from like, oh God, what is that to like, oh hell yeah. Yeah. And then I give it to them and I say, There you go, that's a little gift. I don't know, like, let's let's do a proper trick, right? And and I kind of cancel that bit out. Uh, and then I go into the card selection process, I select the card and the card, and then I go, I'm gonna do some magic. Snap my fingers, I go, I just did magic. And and I go, and then I spread through the cards, and it's not in there. My my personality is really playful, quite fun. Um, you know, I almost um it's not uh uh it's not ridiculing magic, but it's almost calling calling out all of the um uh stereotypes of magic. You know, like if I'm gonna if I'm gonna use a hanky, I'm gonna go, ooh, magic, kind of thing. Like, ooh, look at this. You know, I'm never gonna pull out hanky seriously. Um, and so it's it's a bit like that. Um, so I go, let's do a proper trick, toss the card, ooh, one gonna do magic, it vanishes, and then I go, the card's now in your pocket. And and they're like, what? And they'll go to their pocket, they'll pull out the condom, they'll pull out whatever else in the pocket, they'll be like, no, it's not, and they'll go, what? And they'll start searching other pockets. They'll go, no, no, no, no, no. It was that one, was it not in there? They go, no. And then I'm like, oh wait, I know what's happened. Did I get it stuck? And I'll just point to the condom. And then I'll be like, touch it, feel it. Doesn't feel like what should be in there, does it? And that's the moment that it hits home, and they're like, Oh my god. And then they rip the condom out and then inside is that is that holder card. Um now the the way that I've routined it is it's a comedy routine, it's not a flirtatious routine, it's but I love how it undulates. You go from this really solid style, like think of a card. That's quite a solid kind of thing to do. To them reaching into their pocket, they think this miracle is going to happen, then you you change, it just changes all of a sudden when the condom comes out. Um, and then I found that I used to go from king size to regular sometimes, like, oh, okay, let's, but that psychologically is nowhere near as strong. Um, and the person feels belittled, and they could have a great sense of humor about it, you know, but it's never going to make them feel as good as if you turn it from regular to king's eyes. Okay. And so then then it seems like that's the end of it. And I like this surprising coming back to things, things having strong magic happening, and then at the end of the routine, bang, something else that they never expected happens. And so that's why I kind of go, let's do a proper trick. I'm sorry about that. I didn't mean like, I'm sorry, you keep that, and uh, and and yeah, and then you go into the trick, and then it comes back to the condom at the end, and they don't see that coming, and uh, and yeah, it's it's a it's um it's a piece that I do for a lot of people. Um there are times when I think this isn't right and I won't show it, but there are more often than not, it's it's just lighthearted, fun comedy. Um, it's not like I say, it's not flirtatious or anything like that. So so yeah, it's it's again something that I've worked, something that I've I've kind of grown to love, and it fits my personality, and it's another one of those, oh, you can't ever do that. Well, I am, I'm gonna do it, and if it works for me, I'm gonna carry on doing it, kind of thing. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 58:41

Now, with a routine like this, obviously you mentioned that you'll only do it to the right people. So, in your working set, are you likely to put in a card to impossible location just in general, and then if you feel like it's the right group, you switch out the version that you were gonna do for this in the moment?

SPEAKER_01: 59:05

Um I don't I um what's the best way of saying how I work? So, how I work is I have I try to have as much of my stuff as a grade stuff. I don't want filler. Um, you know, I don't want to rely on crazy man's handcuffs as a as a it's a great trick. It's a great trick, it's a really, really strong trick, but it's uh it's not a performance piece. Um so I don't I try to have as many A-grade things on me at any given point, but I don't know exactly what I'm going to do until I've addressed the group, spoken to them, introduced myself, shaken everyone's hands, and then I kind of understand where I'm going with that. Um I do, I can do the exact same routine, and I do the exact same routine with different, like with a ketchup sachet. So that makes it a lot more. Um uh a lot more family friendly, should you say? And it's also something you could do for children as well, which is great. Um, but I don't have this trick in my set is an impossible location, and I'm always gonna do an impossible location at that point in my set. My set changes. I have I have things that I repeat, obviously. Um, but when I do them, I don't know. So so yeah, but uh but when I say I choose the right people, um I I think it's important to to uh uh build rapport with people. I think it's important for you to be a person and to treat people like people. So when I first approach a group, I have my little intro, which uh which is a Jay Sanky kind of thing, it's it's kind of stuck with me at works, which is hi, my name's Ben. I've been asked by so-and-so to come and show you a quick couple of tricks, and guess what? You're next, kind of thing, or or whatever I want to say at that point. But essentially what you're saying is, hi, my name's Ben. I've been asked by so-and-so to come and show you a couple of quick tricks. So they know your name, they know that you've been asked to do this, and they know it's just gonna be quick. Okay, it's a nice kind of lead into it. And I say, and then I'm like, I'm sorry, what what are your names? And then I'll shake everybody's hand, I'll remember, I'll remember everyone's name. I think that's super important. Um and I can share a couple of tips with that in a bit if you like. But um, but yeah, uh so essentially before I've gone to show anyone any magic, I know their names, I've shaken all their hands, and I've broken down the barrier that you can get sometimes when because you get some people that are like, oh great, I want to see like a magic magician, yeah, amazing. And then you get some people that are like, oh, all right, okay. And then you get some people that are non-plus, you get different types of people. You can have all these types of people in one group, and unless you're unless you're keen, like aware, and unless you're paying attention to it, you're gonna be giving off a performance to that's gonna be received really well by one type of person, but but maybe not so well by the other people. So by doing this little intro, speaking to everyone, shaking everyone's hand, that's an invisible contract that goes, hey, we're gonna get on right now. You know, if you're gonna be a douche, then you really are a douche, kind of thing. Um, like because who shakes someone's hand and then is instantly a douche to them, you know, and uh and so so it's broken down barriers. I now know where I stand, I now know who the alpha male is. If there is like one in the pack, there's I now know who's playful. Um, you know, I I now have an idea who I'm gonna start with. I now also have noted things like who has a nice ring if I'm gonna do a ring flight. Um, who's gonna be the person that's most likely to have a wallet or some money on them, or like not that people have money anymore, it's more credit cards or you know, and so I'm I'm clocking all of these things in those first few seconds of meeting a group, and I haven't even got a deck of cards out of my pocket yet. And so so yeah, I will know at the start of every group kind of where I'm going to go, but until that happens, I don't know. I just have a I just have a bank of things on me ready to go.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:27

Yeah, that's a great choice. Uh, and another great heavy hitter in at number six, and another object to impossible location. Um let's see where we go with the tail end of your list. So, what's in at number seven?

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:42

Um I think number seven, I these last two are two things which I love performing. Um I think I will I'll go with rings. So, rings is my linking card routine. Um, I think you mentioned it earlier. Um, I've had various iterations of how to do linking cards. I have methods for linking cards I've never released. Um, rings is uh something I released to the magic. This specific way of performing it, I released to the magic industry last year, the beginning of last year. And essentially what it is is you take a playing card, you tear two rings out of it, those two rings are signed, and then they're placed in the spectator's hands, and they link together and are permanently linked, so they never come apart. Um, and I've like I say, I've got loads of different methods for linking cards. Rings is the one that for me has stuck because I did release OCL, one card link, many, many moons ago. Um, I think I had a uh release on DVD with Merchant, that was 2012 or something like that, and then again um Illusionist put it out uh in 2016, and and I love I love that method. Um, I'm very proud of it, but it was me solving a problem. And uh I don't uh the problem was as a creator, I was like, okay, so how am I going to do this? How and it was setting parameters for the creation and then solving those problems. Um and in doing so, the method works, it's great. I'm very proud of it, but there's a few things that are um that could go wrong in a situation. For example, the lot in with the OCL method, the link is happening live. Like it's you're undoing and then doing back together bits and bobs. So if you get anything wrong with any of that, the alignment at the end of the with what you give them is just going to telegraph that something's not quite right. Um, then you also have the angle issue, you can't be completely surrounded because you're doing this kind of work. Um, and there's also an issue with timing of preparing the gimmick to performing the trick. Um, so although it ticks all the boxes in in so many different ways, there's also a few things which um made me keep going back to it. So, rings is the same effect. You have a single playing card, you tear two rings out of it, you have those rings signed, and then they're placed in the spectator's hand when they open the hand, these two signed rings are linked and permanently linked. But um there's one aspect of it which you are uh leaving out in order to have a much more solid kind of routine. So a lot of the work is done before. The setup is easier, there's no timing issue with when you set it up to when you perform it. Um, it feels exactly the same. Uh but it's just more practical. It's just a more practical surefire method. Because you are doing the prep beforehand, you can take your time with it, you can make sure that it's absolutely perfect, spot on, so that when they end up with this, this because I uh the last thing I want to do is be at the top table performing this, performing OCL, realize, oh God, the bridesmaids walked over, or there's some videographer that's come over my shoulder, or people have suddenly surrounded me. Me then get a bit more nervous, a bit more tight with my performance, to then make a little mistake, which I then don't want to hand them the linked rings at the end. That'd be that'd be rubbish. So strip all that out, strip out all the worries, all the things, and just have a solid practical method for it. And that's what what rings is. It's it's my permanently linked card or signed linked card. Um, yeah, that uh that is practical.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:55

Amazing. Well, I remember your OCL from way back when, and that was what prompted me to create Gathering, which is the trick that you're on the trailer for, so full circle moment. Um, but I remember that absolutely taking the magic world by storm when it came out, it was massive. And I mean, at the time there was a wave of linking card routines, it was like the plot at the time. Um, but yours was the cleanest, it was the fairest, it was the fact that they could be handed out. I think that was that was the thing that really captured magicians' imaginations.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:33

It's funny that you mentioned all the different methods. It's like there were some years where coin and bottle was the trick that everyone's trying to like make the version of. And yeah, I do remember because like Andrew Main had a linking card. Um, and oh god, there were there were a few different linking cards. And uh, and yeah, everything was either an illusion of the link or you linked it, but you couldn't have it inspected. And I was just like, right, how are we gonna nail this? How are we gonna have both bits signed, linked together, and given away at the end? And that's where for a long time I had this idea for OCL, but there was this one bit which was like you had to have like a razor blade cut in the paper, which I just did not want. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because I'm gonna if I'm gonna give it out, I don't want nine out of ten people not knowing how it's done. I want 10 out of 10 people not knowing how it's done, you know. That's that's just how how I want it. So you I knew that if there was a slight little razor blade cut in the paper layer or something like that, then people are gonna find some people are gonna find that. Okay, and I didn't want that. So that was out as a method. Um, and so this idea that I had was like, well, that works, but how can I do it without without that razor blade cut? And then there was this pivotal moment where I was just like, I put my key in a lock uh in the door, and I was just like, key into the lock. And then I was like, oh, and for some reason that imagery just unlocked this little final detail that allowed me to then make OCL work, um, and not have this paper razor blade cutting it. And uh, and yeah. Um and so, so yeah, that's that's kind of where that came from. But yeah, I I definitely that's why I set myself those parameters was because every the linking card was the cool thing at the time. So yeah, it's uh it's funny that you mentioned that because because yeah, yeah. And and it's funny, there are some people. Um I got messaged by somebody, I think his name's Robbie Templeton, I think, and and he he was just saying how he uses OCL. He doesn't he doesn't like the rings method, he likes the OCL method. And I'm like, well, fair play. You probably you perform that, you definitely perform that method more than I do now, because I don't perform it anymore. So so yeah, yeah, it's funny. But uh, but yeah, rings for me is is a solid, practical way of performing the exact same trick. It eliminates a lot of performance issues. Um, you know, for me as a working performer, you know, if you're doing it one off, then that's fine. But um you're doing something for a wedding and you're going, This is a piece that I want you to keep, and then you screw something up in performance and they can't keep it, that's rubbish. So so again, I'm quite stringent with with what um what I keep and what I don't keep. And uh, and yeah, if I if I make a rule, then it's I kind of try to adhere by that rule as much as I can.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:39

Amazing. Well, that's a great win at number seven. So let's find out what you put in your final spot.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:45

So in my final spot is a routine that you will have own only a few people will have seen if they've seen me lecture. And it's something that I call photo frame, which is uh it's essentially an image change inside a photo frame. And so you um again, it's something that I can customize. Uh it's something this one trick. If I if I disregard money that you that you get from perform, oh actually, might even win that. Um I'm trying to think monetarily, like this one trick has earned me so much money, um, either in upselling and getting extra money for gigs because of an upsell, or for nailing a gig that I feel is kind of getting away from me in the quote phase and adding more value by giving this as something. Um, it's also allowed me to feel confident um in charging a good fee for private parties as well, because I that's one area that I'm I'm still, you know, always a bit unsure about is the private party domain. Because you know, people don't have the same budgets as they do for weddings or corporate gigs. And I'm not a cheap magician, um, but I enjoy doing them. And so this has allowed me to I don't earn the same from a wedding, I mean, as I would from a wedding or from corporate, but it's a decent wage, and I know I can pretty much nail it by offering photo frame as an upsell, because essentially you okay, the the basic routine, if I this is how I do it in my show. So I have uh a spectator choose a film, okay, and everybody sees what film this is, and I say, I've got a prediction, it's inside this envelope. Here's you know, and then I start to do a mind read and I say, Okay, so all right, this I get the feeling of maybe some uh I don't know. Um okay, so I get the feeling there's something chasing or like there's something hunting or something like that. Yeah, that that makes sense to you. Now the film that they've chosen is Terminator. Um, but I say, okay, and this is um, all right, so I feel like maybe there's a company in this like that has maybe got the wrong idea about doing stuff and and and maybe humanity is gonna suffer for this or something, and people think Skynet, and they think, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I and and I sort of say, but this this was a huge film, and they agree, and then I say, I think I've got it, and I open up the envelope and I pull out a photo frame, and inside is the movie poster Jurassic Park. I say, Was it Jurassic Park? And they're like, No. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, maybe this prediction routine is gonna turn into a mind reading routine then. And I put the Jurassic Park photo in the frame on their hands, and then I say to them, uh, and then I start to read their mind a bit and then get Terminator from that. Now I can then just reveal it, and what I have is the poster now is Jurassic Park, but instead of saying Jurassic Park, it says Terminator, and I can either just reveal it like that, or I can have them wipe their hand across the photo because they can be holding it. I can be quite free with this, and I can just place a hand over it and have them wipe across the Jurassic Park writing and turn it into Terminator. Um, of course, you can change one movie poster to another movie poster. You can have a black frame that a photo appears inside. Um, you can have a card appear inside the frame. So you can force a movie, get that correct, show that you've predicted it correctly, put the frame in their hand, have a card selected, that vanishes, and it appears inside the frame as well. And the best thing about it is it's completely ungimmicked. They can keep the frame, they can keep everything. So this is something that I do all the time at weddings. Um, it's it's one of my top bespoke pieces, um, because it ends up with a lovely gift for them. I can customize it however I like for them as well. And I can I can change the image from whatever I want to whatever I want. And uh, and yeah, and it's it's a it's uh an another I there's nothing that can go wrong with it, you know. I remember having the idea. Um so somebody booked me um for a wedding, and they were like, I I love graffiti. I was like, hey, that's cool. I love graffiti too. And then I was like, Well, how am I gonna do this? And I was just like, Oh god. And I was like, right, okay, well, how about if I did a trick with something Banksy related? And there's a really famous Banksy image. I don't know if you uh are familiar with it. It's a red brick wall, and that and it's a homeless person sat with a sign. And the sign says, keep your money, and in tiny words it says, I want change, which is a play on the word for change and money and homeless and everything like that. And uh, and so I thought, ah, well, I'll use that. And I thought, well, how what can I how can I make this magical? And I thought, oh, I can change the wording to say keep your money, I want change, to something else. And I was like, okay, so now I'm on to something. And so I thought, well, what if I force something and then have it changed to that? And that's cool. But then I thought, oh, what if I had three things chosen? And then it ended up saying, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, um, you know, and and so I was like, okay, well, that's cool. And I'll do three. And then I was like, right, well, hang on. What if I photoshopped the homeless person's face? So it's now the groom. So the image is now a Banksy of the groom's face holding a sign that says, Um, I'm not really even here. I'm in Malaysia eating a burger with my friend Tom Cruise or whatever. And I did this trick and it just blew the house down. And like this bloke was like, man. It's like I've seen some magic in my time, but like this hands down is the best trick I have ever, ever seen. And like they just they just went nuts for it. And and that was like my basic, basic first iteration of it. And now uh now it's a lot cleaner, there's a lot more convincing, there's a lot more um, yeah, it's just a really lovely performance piece that I love. And I the fact that I end up giving them this gift, this lovely framed kind of moment of magic, is just really special. It's uh yeah. And and like I say, from upsells and nailing gigs, this is uh this one trick alone has earned me thousands, thousands and thousands of pounds. So yeah, it's uh oh look, you can see them in the background there. Those are my three movie posters. But yeah, yeah, it's uh I I love it and and it's it yeah, it fits into my whole bespoke, you know, making things unique, making things creative, actually taking the time, putting the effort in, and coming out with a really, really wonderful result because I'm I'm I I don't subscribe to the oh it'll do kind of thing. I'll just go out and knock out my normal working routine. Like I want to put more effort in on every level to to move you know separate me from those people who and and like put me somewhere where they aren't, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:52

Well, I think it's a great way to round out your list. And I mean, all of the effects that you've picked seem very different. I mean, in terms of if this was a working set, we had Ring Flight Revolution, Card to Shoe, anything which is a mind-reading effect, coins across, digital force bag, carding condom, rings, and your photo frame finish. In terms of a set, in terms of a show, it it's definitely one of the quirkier, more interesting lists that we've had, I would have said.

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:25

Uh well, okay. Thank you, first of all. I think um that's something which I really um I think diversity, having a wide range of things is a good thing. Um I don't like to kind of pigeonhole myself as a mentalist or as a card magician or anything like that. Um, I like to have a varied amount of different styles of things that I can do so that if I feel sometimes I just rock up to people and I'm like, what do you want to see? Do you want to see the coin trick? Do you want to see the mind reading thing? Do you want to do this? Do you want to do that? Like, do you want to see misdirection? Do you want to see sleight of hand? Do you want to see real magic? And I ask them, I just go, what do you want to see? And then they'll let me know. And and I know now what type of people I'm dealing with as well. I mean, mostly if you go, do you want to see sleight of hand, misdirection, or real magic? People go, real magic. And they like I'd say 85% of people say that. But occasionally you'll get somebody that goes, I want to be misdirected. And you're like, great, let's let's play with that. Okay. And and and then you're giving them what they want. So having a wide range of tools in your belt just allows you to adapt to people, and I think that's so important. I think it's for me adapting to people and being versatile, fluid, and everything is really, really important. I mean, uh, and again, uh if you if you like the reviews that I get and the comments I get back from people that I've given for is not just saying like, oh my god, his magic was amazing, it blew me away. They all say stuff about my personality, who I am as a person, how I made them feel, you know, and all these kinds of things. Um, you know, how I engaged everybody, like how how you know, how I dealt with them after before and after the gigs and things like that, and like about my personality as much as it is about the tricks. And that I'm I'm really proud of.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:38

Well, let's see where your banishment is gonna take us. So, Ben, I want you to imagine that you're gonna dig a big sandy hole on your island and you're gonna throw something inside. What are you gonna banish from the industry?

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:51

This for me has been a really, really tough thing. I think for me though, probably probably ego. Um, there's so much ego in magic. Um and what it leads to is people saying, No, you don't want to do it like that, you want to do it like this. Um, you know, you see posts about like you know, what you should be wearing as a magician, you know, and and you get all these all these bits of advice that you're told you must do, and all you're really dealing with is somebody's ego that is believing that how they do it is the right way and the only way. And it was that that led me to feeling uncomfortable as a performer for so long because I took all these bits of advice on board, some conflicting, which left me confused. Um, it made me be a performer that I wasn't being myself. Um, and and also I think some people want to put people down in the industry to make themselves feel better, to protect themselves. Um I think there's room for people to be themselves, you know, and and I think there isn't a one rule fits all. There isn't the best way of doing anything. There is, you know, even even in like you know, spilling into how magic is sold now, there this whole this is the ultimate way of doing it, or this is the final answer, or you know, this is uh you know, this fear fear of missing out if you're not doing this the way that they do it, kind of thing. And and I think I think it's it's it's a tough place because because you you need people to guide you. Um, you know, you need, especially when starting out, you know, mentorship, tutorials, you know, learning from others is really super important, but I don't think enough emphasis is put on the fact that you're not me and I'm not you. So I can tell you what worked for me, I can tell you what I think is right, but that might not be right for you. So all I can say is, hey, I do this. Try it out, see if it works for you. And and if it doesn't, that doesn't mean it's still it doesn't mean that it's wrong for me, because it is right for me. It's just not right for them. And and I think it also ego leads to lots of toxicity within the magic community that just need not be here. You know, there's so much energy wasted in the magic community arguing over petty stuff that means nothing. You know, there's some stuff that does mean stuff and does mean things, yeah, for sure. I'm not like tarring the whole, you know, everything that happens in the industry with that brush, but there's a lot of stuff which is irrelevant. It doesn't need the energy or the time spent on it, you know, and and if people were to just stick their ego back in their pocket for a moment and step back and look at this the situation, they realise, uh, you know, maybe this is you know not the way to go, if you like.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:22

This is the the thing that's been said the most in banishment um on the podcast. Yeah. And I do think um at this point, I think it's gonna be undoubtedly the thing that is spoken about the most going forward as well, with you know, good reason. And I think something that you said there as well, it's this idea of people passing judgment on things that they haven't tried yet. I think that's always quite interesting, the idea that someone says, well, you shouldn't do that without experiencing that for themselves and understanding the psychology behind that and why it does work, or you know, what about it works for that person. I think it it's really interesting that people are so quick to shoot things down without just trying it and and seeing what happens.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:09

And yeah, I think that's that's entirely true. I think probably not one person that told me not to do card and shoe had ever tried card and shoe. And that's not to say that I've done it, it works for me, therefore they should do it. You know, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. But but you know, I think that's the whole thing. You know, it's it's so easy. Um, the magic industry. I don't know whether it's just this or not. I don't know whether I've not paid attention to different industries and different communities across the world, but um this is one where there's a lot of looking at other people and thinking that you haven't got it, so you must do it like them in order to get it. And I don't think that's right. Uh you know, I think um I think that doesn't stem from you not having it, it stems from you not having the confidence that you have it. So work on your confidence, don't buy a new trick, don't buy this ultimate method for this, or like this new electronic gadget that's gonna stop you having to do this and having to do that because it does it for you. You know, like stop outsourcing and and and not feeling complete within and and you know, realize that you know you have it already because no one is you, you know, and and the moment that you realize that and the moment that you go, okay, like for example, I am I I I just I'm no I used to love the whole levitation kind of thing. I used to think, God, that's so magical. Make it make a ball of uh balled up banknote float between your hands. Oh, so magical. I wouldn't I wouldn't perform that now if you paid me. Because I know that's not me. I'm I have no my personality has no place in describing what's going on there, apart from I'm fooling you with a like some bit of wire or a bit of string or something like that, you know. It's but there are some people that that is them, you know, that like Lysander. Would I ever perform like Lysander? No. Does that mean that what he does is wrong? No, it worked for him and it works for him. So so he has that space, and that's great, that's fine. And because I don't do it, it doesn't mean that I I I'm not worthy of a similar space in a different area, if you know what I mean. You know, I think we just need to we need to know who we are as people and connect with other people as well. I think I think there's too much magician spectator. Magician spectator when really you're a person and they're a person. Yeah I I I very much now leave what I do to my spectators of choice. If they believe it's real magic, they believe it's real magic. If they believe that I'm a wicked trickster, they believe I'm a wicked trickster. I don't I don't really care what they believe. What I care about is that the time that we spent together was positive, it was good, gave them a great you know I I realize what I love about magic isn't and it's not I've never been a oh me, look at me performer. What I love about magic is leaving people a little bit higher than they were before I met them. And I can only do that to everybody if I address everybody and I understand what people want as an individual. And you might have six different personality traits within a group of six different people. So my goal then is to connect somehow with everyone and and yeah that might be by doing a certain trick on them or it might just be saying the right thing at the right time to them and bringing them in to into the trick somehow you know you know if you've got somebody standoffish and they've got their their arms folded and they're watching like you know really with a BD eye then I'm gonna pay them a compliment I'm gonna go let's see John's got the right idea he hasn't taken his eyes off the cards like he is watching them like a whole and that's what you should all be doing. You know so I might not I might not have him choose a card or do a trick on him in that set but that interaction that one moment gave us a connection and and yeah and so that's that's my goal is to leave everyone a little bit higher than they were before we met. And uh yeah and and you can only really do that if you leave your ego at the door and you treat everyone as equals well that is banished.

SPEAKER_02: 1:32:16

So ego is gone right so you don't have to deal with that again.

SPEAKER_01: 1:32:20

Now that takes us to your book so what did you put in your book position oh this beauty yeah which looks like nothing because you can't see it this is a podcast and also Jamie's looking at it going what is this because there's a blue book but it is Daryl Fitzky's The Trick Brain this is like a blueprint to creativity in magic um Darriel Fitzkey has a wicked trilogy of books. He's got um the magic uh showmanship by magicians or something or magic by showmanship or something he's got magic uh and misdirection I think or something like that and he's got the trick brain they are three outstanding books that like are all about um psychology of magic as opposed to tricks but what the trick brain is is it's it strips everything away into its foundation level so it breaks everything down like every magic trick can be boiled down to a certain amount of different tricks like a levitation is a levitation whether you're levitating a bulled up bit of paper or a house. It doesn't matter it's a levitation okay so that's that's that real trick. And then what it does is so it it lays these foundations of what different tricks there are. There are productions appearances you know um there are transpositions there are vanishes and and it basically lays that foundation and then within those foundations it goes say for a levitation you either need to propel it from below or support it from above you know those are your methods you know uh there is obviously a the a more horizontal plane but then that's not as fluid with the with the levitation or whatever but it basically breaks everything down into core components or foundations which then become building blocks to creating your own magic. So now you can start to look at different items different objects different things around and go like okay well how could what could I do with that and it it gives you a foundation to build creativity from and yeah yeah I I love that absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34:36

That sounds great yeah I've uh just as you were reading it I did just do a uh little read up on it as well it's quite an old book I think it says the first edition was 1944 um but it sounds fascinating the idea that he manages to shrink it down to these 19 different outcomes and then from that he uh extrapolates on it and then and then builds on it. I think that's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01: 1:35:00

It sounds like a great book it's yeah it it it is it gives you a great foundation to create from you know a solid base and and also it kind of it just works with my brain my brain likes to kind of filter things down and put them into boxes if you like and and yeah it just it just really helped me and and there's there's loads of other great books there's you know there's the Art of Astonishment books uh you know I I love um um oh wait hang on I've got it right here this is a book from a buddy of mine called Stanicorth and Clouds and Kingdoms and there's I love this book this book's fantastic but I think for me something that doesn't just teach me tricks and inspire me that way and actually gives me the tools to to create my own ideas is is super valuable and yeah that's what the trick brain is.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36:02

Amazing well let's go on to your final item then so this is your non-magic item that you use for magic.

SPEAKER_01: 1:36:09

I I'll say elastic you know like um not like a rubber band elastic I'd probably just like have a huge supply of elastic cord um because you can there's there's a lot that you can do with with elastic. You know it's a it's a means of making something move you have if you have it under tension and release that tension it's gonna move something and that can be applied to loads of different things and you can use it to make really insane very clean vanishes. You know you could I mean if you want to boil down to it you could wrap you could just have a bit of elastic that you cut and glue to itself as a as a band to do out to lunch with you know there's you know different you could you know make two rings out of elastic and then do crazy man's handcuffs kind of thing so you know or any manner of elastic kind of tricks but I think I think it's it's a tool which I've used a lot in creating little bits and bobs and uh and yeah yeah I think it's um it's versatile and probably not the right choice but for a non-magic item that it would have to be that I think okay well it's one that we've not had before so I'm happy with that it's almost like if we take all of the items that people have said and we put them into a little kit it'd be like a little toolkit for magicians which is good. You need to you need to curate that you need to invite some creators and go like let's have a have a little magic off and see who who's come up with the best stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 1:37:57

Let's go back over your list. So we've got a ring flight revolution card to shoot anything coins across digital force bag card in condom rings photo frame your banishment was ego your book is the trick brain and your item is elastic what a great list and that has been my desert island tricks.

SPEAKER_01: 1:38:15

Ben if people want to find out more you mentioned that you teach the photo frame trick in your lecture so if people want to find out more about you about the lecture all of that good stuff where do they go to um I would say a good thing would be to go to my gumroad website which is unbelievablemagic dot gumroad dot com and that is look that's like my um my store for my digital products um but you can click to subscribe to my emails from there where I will send out I try not to send out daily email I don't not even weekly emails I my emails follow a format I call three mail which is there's something new there's something to learn and there's something to inspire you. So this inspiration might be non-magic it might be something that I've seen which has made me go oh that's pretty cool. It might be magic related but something to learn is usually a little tip or trick or something which I have picked up in either a performance tweak or an actual idea that you can just use in your own performance and then there's something new it's just something new that I've seen which which I want to talk about. So the whole idea is I don't want it to seem like I'm every email is a sales email but it is but we all have enough of them we all have enough of them I just want to share my thoughts and help inspire people and also if you subscribe to my newsletter then you get all of my back catalogue apart from switch and rings um and my card and condom which are my three latest releases all my other releases you get for free so you get a PDF with video links to download the two gimmick it yourselves there's my card and shoe there's anything there's labeled evolution there's like anything that you can think of that I've released is is on there. So and if they have and if they want to book you for a lecture uh you can email Ben at unbelievablemagic.com unbelievable magic is my website which is so if you go to unbelievablemagic.com you're gonna get my performance website if you go to unbelievablemagic.gumroad dot com you'll get my magician's product website so but either website you can reach out to me drop me an email I'll happily chat and uh and if you have any questions and I always say this as well if anybody ever has any questions thoughts or problems with anything that I they've got from me just speak to me I will always help.

SPEAKER_00: 1:40:58

Amazing well thank you so much for your time Ben no thank you it's been a pleasure and of course thank you all for listening we're gonna be back next week with another guest but for now have a great week goodbye when I perform a gigs I look at effects that tick these three boxes is it super strong and powerful yes will it last of your spectators for a lifetime absolutely and does it leave them with a souvenir that perfectly option the moment of magic if that almost sounds exactly what you're after not further button then the liquid fold these bulbs have been custom designed to be able to bend right in front of your spectrum and trust me that you will honestly keep it impossible options because I just mean moth in front of the eyes it liquid tells me impossible not only that liquid folds comes with it and it comes with the full liquid folds funny what's not we have a subscription if you find the love a monthly subscription one you can do