Desert Island Tricks
Each week we invite one of the biggest guests in the world of magic to maroon themselves on a desert island. They are allowed to take with them 8 tricks, 1 book, 1 banishment and 1 non magic item that they use for magic! We discuss their 'can't live without' lists and why those items were chosen.
Episodes are uploaded every Friday and are available via all Podcast service providers!
To find out more about the team behind Desert Island Tricks, please visit: www.alakazam.co.uk
Desert Island Tricks
SOS I Liam Montier
Stranded for two years with a snooker table and a legendary list, Liam Montier finally gets a rescue and uses it to rethink everything.
We revisit his original Desert Island picks and watch half of them evolve: Dynamic Coins gives way to Peter Kane’s Variant, Psycho Dice upgrades to Steve Cook’s The Gamble, Twilight Angels steps aside for Stephen Tucker’s Alpha to Omega, and John Bannon’s Royal Scam edges out Strangers Gallery. What stays says as much as what changes: The Kick survives on the strength of Gemini Twins, and Out of This World holds its throne as card magic that feels like life, not just cards.
Liam digs into why direct plots hit harder, how to escalate fairness across phases, and the art of construction that lets spectators do the impossible. He shares a candid stance on failure, don’t catastrophes it and a pointed banishment: single-trick downloads. We unpack why multi-trick books, lectures, and deep-dive projects build better magicians, widen method literacy, and deliver more value per idea. There’s heart, too: a sliding-doors memory of leaving a hated retail job for Big Blind Media, meeting John Bannon, and finding a path where craft and community meet.
For company on the island, Liam chooses Alex Elmsley, eager to talk structure beyond the count, and for a timeless watch he picks John Lenahan’s Stuff the White Rabbit, live-to-camera magic from Rene Lavand to Tom Mullica that proves clarity outlives editing. If you care about strong card magic, practical philosophy, and the choices that shape a repertoire, this rescue mission is packed with insight and inspiration.
Liam’s SOS Substitutions: :
1. Dynamic Coins for Kane’s Variant
2. Psycho Dice for The Gamble
3. Twilight Angle's for Alpha to Omega
4. Strangers Gallery for Royal Scam
5. Four Card Trick for Predictor
Banishment. Single Trick Downloads
Guest. Alex Elmsley
Memory. First time working with BBM
Horror Story. Don’t give importance to when things go wrong
Show. Stuff the White Rabbit
Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk
Hello and welcome to the very first episode of Desert Island Tricks SOS. So, what is Desert Island Tricks SOS? This is another spin-off podcast. The idea here is some of our guests that we marooned on the Alakazam Island have been there for two years. Think about the tan lines at this point. Or not. They have been there for a very long time. So we need to go and rescue them. In order for us to rescue them, we need to give them a few extra things. So, number one, they get to change up their list. We want to find out whether they've enjoyed performing their list for the past two years. So we'll revisit their list, have a look at it, see if they want to change anything out. If they do, what would they change it out for and why? Or are they sticking with that list? Are they sticking with the same list that they already uh originally used? Then if they're one of our older guests from our first series, like today's guest, then they did not get a banishment. So we are going to give them a banishment. They get to take something, throw it into that big sandy hole that we love talking about, bury it, and it's gone for good. The last thing is uh we're gonna give them a guest. So someone that could go onto their island with them. They can be dead or alive, and we just want to know why they would take that guest with them. They're allowed to relive a memory, something from their career, something that if they could go back and relive it, they would. They get a horror story, so we've got a big glass bottle on our island. We're gonna write down a horror story, we're gonna put it in a little scroll, put it in that bottle, and throw it out to sea, never to be seen again. And the last thing is a show or a performance that they would go and see. Now, this may not be something that they've ever seen before. This could be something that they wish they had the chance to go and see. So, just to summarize, they get a banishment if they're one of the older guests, and they get another magician, dead or alive, on that island with them, they get a memory to relive, they get a horror story to put in that glass bottle and throw out to sea, and lastly, a show or performance that they wish they could go to. Now, today's guest was one of our early guests. In fact, I think it was only like our fifth episode, and it was such a great episode. I actually listened back to it for research for this episode of SOS, and considering it was one of the first ones that we did, it really was a great, great list. He was the first person to talk about his list chronologically, so almost like we were revisiting his life from his early days um up to where he is now. So it's gonna be really interesting to see if he would change any of his tricks out, whether anything has shifted for him because he's around magic so often. And also, obviously, our new items. Let's see what he would put into those. If you haven't listened to his episode, please go and listen to that first. Uh, it's Liam Montier's episode, it was one of the first ones. Listen to that first, and then come back and listen to this because it's going to be a continuation of that. So, we have just got on our jet ski. We are approaching Liam's island. He's quite a power chap, so the the redness is real at this point. And he's he's uh on the island waving at me. Of course, hello Liam. We're glad to be back on your island. Jamie, it's great to see you. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_01:Uh good. How have you been on your island for two years? I'm lucky I've not just been reduced to a pile of smoldering ash if this has been this island for two years. Just like a vampire seeing um sunlight. Um no, the island has been good. I don't really remember the tricks that I had. So I'm hoping there probably will be some changes we can talk about. Although I remember loving all the tricks, so I don't know what ones I would swap out because it's quite complicated.
SPEAKER_02:I think the really interesting thing with this podcast, we didn't know where it was going. Uh, you were one of the first people to create this like chronological journey through your life. You started off with the ones that you remembered when you were younger, and then you kind of went on to the more common ones that that are around today. So uh it's really interesting over the series how people have gone down these different routes, but I think you were the first person that we had on that we were like, oh, maybe people are gonna put different lists together based on different criteria.
SPEAKER_01:I do remember listening to what your criteria was and then just ignoring it. I remember you saying, I thought 10 tricks would you do on a desert island? And I thought, oh, everyone's gonna say the same ten tricks, so I'll just do something different. So apologies for that. But um, yeah, but that will make adding new things to the list probably easier than in that case.
SPEAKER_02:Well, one of your tricks uh that you chose, which was your second choice, has actually been featured uh uh more times than I would have thought it would have been put together. Um we'll get on to it because we are gonna revisit your list. We're gonna revisit your list and give you a chance to swap any of them out. Um, and of course, you get your banishment, which you didn't have on one of the first series.
SPEAKER_01:No, so I get to banish something just from the industry in general.
SPEAKER_02:From the industry in general. So we say imagine that we're gonna dig a big sandy hole on your island, and we're gonna throw something in that hole, bury it, never to be seen again. Um so yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see what that one is. You better dig a pretty big hole. We're gonna do the whole other island for you. Um right, so let's go back over your list. So let's do it. Your list uh was Dynamic Coins, Tenetro, which was the coin through rubber, uh Psycho Dice, which is a phenomenal trick, The Kick, which again one of my favourites, Twilight Angels, which was a great Paul Harris trick. We had Out of This World, probably one of the best card tricks, Strangers Gallery, which is a superb colour changing deck by John Bannham. The four card trick by Alex Elmsley, one of the best packet tricks ever created, uh originally for the Elmsley count as well. Your book, although you tried to sneak on multiple volumes, uh, you went for the complete water volume three, and the item that you would have taken with you, which I'm sure this has been great on your island, you have to let us know, uh, was a snooker table. How's that been doing for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that if I'd been stranded on a Death Island for two years with a snooker table, I would still be rubbish at it. I think it's such a difficult game, but I would keep the snooker table, so yeah, I'm gonna keep that, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Well, have you found anyone to play with, or have you literally just been running around to either side of the table playing against a thing?
SPEAKER_01:I quite like practicing, so yeah, uh if there's not anyone else, that's fine. That doesn't that wouldn't worry me in the slightest. I might stand the chance at winning.
SPEAKER_02:So when we spoke about your list, like I say, you you mentioned dynamic coins and penetra as being two of those tricks when you were younger that really impacted you and that you really enjoyed watching. And then you spoke to us about the first time that you went to Kmart Magic and you saw Morley, and I think that was when he showed you Psycho Dice. Um and then you spoke about Out of This World being the ultimate card trick, and that there are lots of very good versions of it, but that the original for you was still a standout one. So looking at your list now, is there anything that you would take out? Bearing in mind we've had two years now of you reflecting on this and performing these tricks. Is there something that maybe you would take out?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, maybe. I mean, the reason I chose those tricks originally is because I I I distinctly remember seeing a lot of those for the first time. Like I remember seeing dynamic coins for the first time and just going, what the fuck is happening? I can't grasp, you know, physics means nothing here. What's going on? Um, and the same with a lot of those tricks. I remember seeing Out of This World for the first time. I think a lot of people do. I remember seeing the Kirk and Cyclo, all that stuff. But if the criteria was actually like, you know, I'm going to be performing these tricks for other people, maybe I would change some, you know, if we stick to the formula of what Desert Island tricks were supposed to be, what ones would I take to perform for the rest of my life? Maybe they would be different. I would like to swap them round just for variety's sake as well. The thing is, like, there's so much great magic. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of crap as well, but there are so many great tricks. And I always think that was part of the reason why I wouldn't have performed for a living, because limiting yourself to just the same few tricks when there's so much interesting stuff would be a shame for me because you know I'm more interested in what is new and what is cool and learning new things than I am in showing the same trick over and over to people for the same reactions. No disrespect to people who do that, everyone wants something different out of this hobby stroke lifestyle choice that we've all made. Um, but for me, it is about what's new and different. So I probably would mix up some of the things off the list.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so let's go through them item by item. Let's see whether you would keep it, get rid of it, and if you do get rid of it, what you would replace it with. So we're gonna start with dynamic coins. So are we keeping dynamic or are we getting rid of dynamic?
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna lose the dynamic coins. It played its part, it you know, like I say, it gave me great memories. It's part of what got me into magic. I think before then, all of my sort of interactions with magic had been like, you know, tricks that uncles knew or rubbish card tricks that took an hour and a half to go wrong. And so it was kind of like the dynamic coins, like I say, was just so direct. You know, this thing's empty, you turn it over, there's a pile of coins. You're like, what? This is already better than anything I'd ever seen at the time. And then all the other stuff happens, they change into five P's, whatever. Um, so for the memory, you know, I'm happy to have it for the memory, but I'm gonna I would swap that out now for something different to show. I'd say I'd swap it out for a trick by Peter Kane, who is an English magician from years ago, who was just an absolute genius. He was probably the most ripped-off magician in the world as well. Just a fabulous bloke. I got some email convention just um before he died as well. And I uh so I would swap it out for a trick called variant, which is a sort of routine of Peter Keynes. And it's got that thing that I like at the moment where you can do a trick and it visibly frustrates people when it works. You kind of it's the basic effect is that you lay out five cards with different values, they place a coin on one of the cards and they get that number of moves, and you predict where the coin ends up. And the presentation is that if they land on a card that says win, they keep the coin, and all four of them say win, but the one they've put it on says lose. And then you repeat it and you repeat it, and they and it gets fairer and fairer, and they keep losing and losing. And there's something about presenting it to people where you see the like after the first one, they're like, Oh, I'm not gonna win this, but I don't see how I can't win it. And it is like this frustration slowly builds up until it's like, Oh, is this working? Give me my stuff. I don't understand. And it's just so there's something really satisfying about, especially people who are skeptical of magic, or you know, in I don't know how it is in other countries, you know, in America and stuff, people seem to love magic, but here not so much. If you say to people you're a magician, they'll kind of go, Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Um, so it's kind of cool for that sort of person to have something where they can throw all their mental capacity at trying to work out how it works, and the trick holds up to it and still mercilessly beats them over the head and they um they lose their money. So, yeah, I would say Kane's variant, I would swap for that. Um, it's a great principle as well. There's loads of other presentations that you can do for it. The standard one is great, um, but yeah, there are other versions in the little booklet they produced, um, including one using like coin purses and banknotes, which looks so fair you could actually just use it as a as a scam. Like it really is savagely unfair. But yeah, so if you like sort of gambling things and you know, like um the three-card Monty, the endless chain, that kind of you know, scam sort of thing, it's got a bit of a bat to it, but in a really cool way. So, yeah, it can be a bit dry. I remember reading it um years ago. We had the little bookplits at Morley's when he came on, and I remember reading it and going, oh, it sounds awful, like maths county movie round thing. Um, but then uh it's like a lot of great tricks. They sing when you see them done. You can't always just read it and picture how it looks and how it feels. And variant, when you see it done, you get that sense of, oh, this is ridiculous. Why can't I win this? How do you know where I'm gonna put this coin all the time? How do you know what direction it's going? I don't understand. And you don't really get that from the book, I don't think. So, yeah, it's one of those tricks you kind of got to see and experience, like the three-card Monty, or you know, any of those sort of gambling sting things.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, goodbye, dynamic coins. Uh, Hello Canes variant. Let's go to number two then. So, in number two, you put penet uh penetro, um, which this was the one that I mentioned. We've had a few people mention it on the podcast. Um yeah, so I think we had pre maybe Preston Nyman was one of the ones who mentioned it, and he attributed it to uh Luba Filder. I can never say his last name. Um, and I think that's where it was originally um published. Yeah, it was it was his trick.
SPEAKER_01:It's such a great trick. I mean, it's got great mystique to it, it looks so cool. I would be loath to to take it off the list, it's just too good. Any trick that makes you giggle as you do it kind of has to stay on the list. You bring it out and go, there's two coins on there, and they go, Yep, you're like, uh suckers. They're already toast, so yeah. I would probably I you know, I have got more tricks to put on, but I feel like that would have to stay on the list because it is just a bit too good.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so we're keeping Penetro on your list. Let's go to number three then. So in number three, you put Psycho Dice, which is a phenomenal Steve Cook trick.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'd still love this. I would probably I would probably change it, and I'm gonna change it, but I would just change it to another Steve Cook trick that basically does the same thing, but it means that you you don't rattle as you walk around. I find Psycho Dice is quite noisy. That's actually carry. Um, so um I put out a version of um Psychodice with Steve probably years ago now, uh, called The Gamble. And it was the same trick, but um, or the same kind of the same method. It was a bit expanded, so you had four choices instead of three. In Psycho Dice, uh Psychodice, you laid out three different color dice, they chose one and it matched the one in the box. Um, and it's a fabulous trick. It's a trick a lot of magicians get wrong as well. They always, you know, and I probably said this in the last one, but it kind of bugs me when people say it's a multiple out because that isn't what it is at all. It's more clever than that. It's a kind of multiple in. You know, if it's a multiple out, then you go the blue. If you pick the blue one, that's written on my shoe, and if you pick the green one, it's written on my cat that walked past, or whatever. But in it because it's a multiple in, it is always the one in the box. So it's not really fair to call it a multiple out. Well, with the gamble, that's got four colours instead of three, four poker chips. And Steve could came up with this brilliant way of navigating how to get into the prediction being the one that's in their pocket if you're uh you know, if the chip comes out somewhere that would normally be logistically difficult. Um, and of course, you don't rattle with four poker chips in a leather pouch as much as you do with four dice in a black stick box. So just yeah, just for logistics. I think if I'd been running around a um a desert island with a rattly box, I would probably have gone mental. So yeah, so we'll upgrade um Steve Cook Psycho Dice. And hopefully Steve won't mind because he's still his trick bill as replacing it. Uh we'll replace it with the gamble instead.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, that's a great choice. And I I was gonna say, I I think it would have been a shame to take Psycho Dice out, but I agree that the the upgrade of having an extra chip there, and again, I remember when you showed me uh this for the first time and the way that you produced it, it came with the the pouch, and it thematically felt a bit more relevant, maybe than a box of dice as as the the prediction, it just felt a bit more real world.
SPEAKER_01:It does, but it also feels a bit more direct. I sometimes felt like with psycho dice, uh because they're dice and you didn't use the numbers, it felt like perhaps there should be a trick that follows on, or the trick should have used the numbers in some way. Whereas, you know, with the chips, they are just the colour, and you predict the colour, and that's kind of the end of it. It feels a little bit more direct. I mean, that's a nitpicky point, but you know what I mean. It just feels like you've got everything with it. And yeah, I just think it's a great trick. Again, it's one of those I think a good trick entertains you as the magician as much as a layman in terms of method, and that definitely does that with the gamble. It was also um, I had a great time with it. I took it to one of the conventions, it might have been the session, I might have had a stand at the session, and there was a bunch of guys um that I showed it to, and then they all went off and got their friends and came back to see it again, and I did it again and got the same outcome, and then they all went off and got new friends and came back. So I ended up doing this the tricks the third time to like 60 people, and they got the same outcome again, and then I sold out instantly because I was like, oh my god, every time it's just the one you pull out. I was like, Well, that's good. So yeah, I was like, I think that yeah, it was very entertaining. Um, but yeah, fabulous trick. And Steve, you could pick loads of Steve tricks for lists like this. He's just got it's something about him, he's a very humble down-to-earth bloke, but he really thinks of the small details, and he always fools you when you meet him, he's always got something, and what's more annoying is it's always something you did know or should have known. You watch him do it and it fools you, and then he tells you how to do it, and you're like, Oh, I knew that already. I just didn't recognise it. I trusted you, you bastard.
SPEAKER_02:Well, maybe it's not gonna be Steve Cook as your guest on that island. Now I'm worried. Uh, right, so we we've switched out Psycho Dice, we've got the gambling. Let's have a look at your fourth choice. So you had the kick. Are we keeping the kick or getting rid of the kick?
SPEAKER_01:The kick is such a great trick. Again, it's gonna have to stay. I mean, it's one of the first proper, like professional magic tricks I bought, like from a magic shop rather than you know, a high street or whatever. So it will probably have to stay in. I do still do it now. There are other versions. I do the casino kick. Um I had a version with Big Bly Media called the Big Kick. I kind of cycle round them. But that thing, there's always some version of it, not only in my repertoire, but normally that I have on me. And um, so yeah, I think I would probably it would have to be one of those versions of it. It's just so clever. I think that whole Gemini Twins thing is such a good force. Like we when you think about forcing a card, most methods are terrible, if we're honest. You know, I'll cut the deck, riffle down the side of the pack, you call stop, and I'll cut it back. Like, do me a favor. No one's thinking that that's actually a card that they've had any influence in choosing. Whereas with the Gemini Twins, giving them a pack and saying deal through, stop anytime you like, do you want to deal more? Yes or no? Put the thing in, you know, do it again. The idea that you have manipulated that two times is just ridiculous. And you know, it's a Cole Fulves idea called Gemini Twins, and it's just fabulous. There's some um I've noticed some people kind of pointing out, oh, that it was in Anaman's jinx beforehand, and kind of the choreography was because it was there as like a key card placement. Anuman would remember the top card and the bottom card, and then use it to place those next to two free selections. But to kind of go, oh, that's the precursor to Gemini twins, does Carl Fulves an injustice because to take the key card placement, which nobody really uses, and to go, I can make this a ridiculously clean double force where your spectator can deal the cards. That's the proper genius of it. So, in some element, I'd have to keep some version of the Gemini twins in there, and the kick I think is the ultimate version, it just feels so good. And I I flip-flop back and forth between that and the casino one because I like the extra phase with the casino backs matching, and I like how the deck looks when you spread it. But part of the thing with the kick is that it looks like a normal deck, and so when it's then blank at the end, it's just more of a playoff. So, yeah, one of those I we'll we'll leave it on, but you know, if someone took the casino kick or something instead, I would not be furious with them that would be allowed, so yeah, we'll keep it in.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I would take the casino kick because I have that in my close-up case. Um, and I love the casino cards. I think when you pull out, and again, I think you you sent me the casino kick, and the ones that you provide are actual casino cards with the corners cut, so it's such a lovely bit of like you can talk about the cards and talk about why the corners are cut, and then you get the backs that match, and then you get all of the other ones matching, and then everything's completely hands-off.
SPEAKER_01:I think for me, the casino kick just has something thematically that's just different than it's cool because it's interesting just the moment you open it, the moment you go, I've got this deck of cards, and you spread it, people are like, Oh, this is cool, what's this? Do you know what I mean? So you've kind of got them hooked straight away. Yeah, I it might be a better trick, and maybe I prefer the cassino uh the original one just because of nostalgia. It was the first proper trick that I bought. But I don't know if if you spread a deck that's got 52 different backs, I don't know if them then having all the same faces is less surprising than if you presume a deck is regular and all turns out to be blank. I don't know. And I wouldn't fight you over it, but uh I think either one, yeah. I think either one is a great trick, so yeah, I think and yeah, the that's the advantage of the casino deck because it's just called right off the bat, so you've got them hooked to just like you know, I've got the the most unique deck of cards in the world, Shazam, and then you're in. So yeah, great trick.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so we're keeping the kick. Let's go on to your number five. So in your original list, you chose Twilight Angels. Are we keeping Twilight Angels or are we sending it to the sea?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's a bit harsh. Can't I just leave it in a drawer? I don't I have to either cast it into the sea or keep it. Okay. Um, I would probably lose Twilight Angels. It breaks my heart to do so. It's a fabulous trick. It's not the easiest of tricks to present because it's kind of like it's what it's what magicians in the sort of 90s used to say is cozy. The handling is a bit cozy, as when all your hands are just like and you're trying to show it, but you kind of you can't move your thumb because if you do the methods revealed. So it's all kind of like if you if you all kneel down a bit and like squint, this looks great. Um, so maybe I would lose Twilight Angels. Um it's still a fabulous trick. I haven't actually done it for a long time. I think sometimes it feels a bit too intimate as a trick. Like, do you know what I mean? Because they have to get so close to see it, and it's kind of like this quite cute thing of an angel vanishing and appearing next to it. It's got a sort of yeah, intimacy to it that maybe isn't suitable all the time. Wouldn't hop tables with it necessarily. So uh we'll change that out, and I think I would change that out for another um genius uh British magician who doesn't he's still around but doesn't do magic anymore, which is Steven Tucker. I'm a huge Steven Tucker fan, and um of of all of his magic and his writing, I love all the magazines and stuff and his sense of humor, which was just second to none. Um so I'm gonna change it for one of his tricks, and I would change it for uh Alpha to Amiga, like uh yeah, like a version of B-Wave or Twisted Sisters, but with regular cards.
SPEAKER_02:It was another one that you sent me uh years ago, I think. I'm not sure. Did you have a version of it and then BBM produced it afterwards? Were there like two versions?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so basically um it was a it was a trick that Stephen Tucker sold for years. You know, it he used to do backball convention with his photocopied sheets of instructions and a couple of cards in there. It was one of those that he he did for absolutely years, and then he produced it through BBM. Um I wasn't invited well, I was there, I was the spectator, you know, to kind of talk him through and be there for the explanation, but um, it wasn't anything to do with me. Um, and then recently we refilmed it for Big Blind Media because the footage is old and Stephen Tucker's retired. Um, and then even more recently, um, BBM did a ESP card version, which may be even better again because you've got an extra choice. You bring out the five ESP symbols, they choose one, blah, blah, blah, blah. You go through so many kickers. Again, it's got that thing of the method will make you laugh for the first bit, and then the rest just builds and builds and builds. If you don't know, if you haven't seen it, uh do check out a demo or something. But basically, the plot is that you put a packet of cards down, you bring out four aces, you say I'm gonna have you name one and I'm gonna turn it over while they're behind my back. That's how awesome this is. So then you put the cards behind your back, they name a card, say the ace of hearts, and then you fumble around and then go, ha ha, and you bring out this fan, and what the ace of hearts is face down, and they go, eh, whatever. And you go, oh, if you're not impressed with that one, you should like this one. And when you spread the packet you've left on the table, the ace of hearts is face up in that packet. So instantly they're like, Oh, I've been done here. This has been like a stitch job. And then you've got like four kickers from there. The ace of hearts in this packet is blank, the others are odd backed, and then the one on the table is odd backed, and the rest are blank faced because you do bring them with you. It just all just, you know. I think the thing I like is the presentation, and it's a presentational thing I like in lots of tricks, is where it looks like it's gonna be a bit shit, the trick initially. Like you fumble around, you bring it out behind your back, and you have turned it around, and they go, This is a waste of my life. Like, why am I watching this? And then the moment you spread the one on the table, they're like, Oh, you've done me. That's what's happened here. Do you know what I mean? They're aware this is like a garden path, and you've turned the hose on me as I've just got for the as I've just got to the front door. And the fact it was all examinable. Um, I showed it to a uh pretty big name magician when I was a kid who had fooled me with something and wouldn't tell me how it worked, which I thought was pretty mean to the thing to do to a teenager. So I showed them um Alpha to Amiga, I think it was just called Amiga back then, and it fooled them, and then I was cruel enough to say, Yeah, the gaff is really well made. And then I got to sit and try and peel these regular guards apart for about an hour and a half looking for the gimmick in it. And there is no gimmicks in Alpha to Amiga, so that was yeah, I remember. I have just strong memories of learning to play the game of sharing tricks with other magicians and the etiquettes behind it, and um, and they learned what happens if you don't tell me what I want to know.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, Twilight Angels have been uh cast off of your island, it's gone. We now have Alpha to Omega back. Uh let's go on to number six then. So in your six bot, you had out of this world.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I I can't really change that. It's just too good a trick, I think. When you I know I'm sure I spoke about this last time, but you know, there's a Eugene Berger quote where he talks about the difference between card tricks and card magic. And he says card tricks are when it's about the cards, and card magic is when it's about life, magic. And, you know, for cannibal kings, eating other cards is about the cards, and you'll get a great reaction, that's fine. But having a spectator subconsciously separate a deck into reds and blacks is a different thing. It's not to say that it's better necessarily, but that's just a whole different experience for someone than watching a card trick, is to is to you know partaking card magic. And again, I've read so many different versions, but you know, there's just nothing wrong with the Paul Purry one, really. Um, it's just so easy to do. It's so sort of unknown now. A lot of magicians don't know it because there's just not as much knowledge, I don't think. People don't read books, and you're not really sold multi-trick DVDs or projects, you're sold individual tricks. And and when you're buying magic individually, it's harder to come across all of these things. So quite a few people have missed out of this world, even people who've been doing magic for a while. And I remember a couple of guys being in the shop when I had a shop back um a couple of years ago, uh, and they had both mentalists, and they hadn't seen a version of Out of This World. And it was like it made me feel good because I was like, man, this is gonna blow your minds, and then I'll teach you it, and you'll both be doing this like for the rest of your life, like the rest of us. So it felt like a good gift to give them. And uh, yeah, it's just it's just too good. It's it's one of the things where the the method and the plot and the effect are just all in perfect sync, I think. It just yeah. And like Al Baker said, many are good trick dies of improvement. I think a lot of people have tried to kill out of this world by doing it with you know smaller packets or letting them shuffle first and then taking three weeks to do it with the US Brown one or whatever. The original and best, yeah, out of this world, I I'd still be doing it, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, we're gonna keep it in your list. But I think something that you just said there, uh since your original list, we have had a couple of versions of Out of This World come out. One of the most notable was Thomas Bedar's Lumino, which was a huge hit at Blackpool this year. And I think what was clever with that version is the uh choice, uh the the selection, sorry, that he includes in it. So effectively what happens is he allows the audience to shuffle the deck. Um they uh sorry, they pick a card first, then they shuffle up the deck, he spreads them, memorizes the colour sequence, and then whilst looking away or keeping his head turn, he then deals them into um two piles, one face down, one face up, so you're seeing all of the red cards as they're face up, and then all of the other cards are face down, and then he turns the uh other pile over, the face down pack in this situation, the black pack, and then he says, Well, what was your card, the two of hearts, when you spread it as the only red card amongst those black cards, so somehow he he's fairly dealt into it, which is really nice. But for me, I still think uh, like you said, putting it in the hands of the audience is what makes this it's not about the performer at all, it's always about the audience member.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, the thing about it is the directness, right? And this is something that the longer I'm in magic, the more I kind of realise the more direct the effect is, the better. For me, anyway, because you know, and it might just be the way that I present things. It's like I need it to be as simple as possible, and the simpler it is to grasp, the better the reaction is from lay people. Now that sounds like a great trick, but I wouldn't really categorize it as out of this world, because for me, out of this world is the spectator separating them. That sounds like a great trick. That's probably a trick I'd do, but I wouldn't feel like it was in competition with out of this world. The end is similar, but to me, it's like because once once a selection's been made, you it is more a card trick, I suppose. You you're bringing in that complication, which is just not here's a deck, dealing into two piles, they're red and black. How did you do that? Do you know what it means? Um, but I do like the sound of that, and that's the sort of thing I think sometimes tricks like that can have real value as a follow-up to Out of This World. Because one of the problems with Out of This World is that it's so good that at some point someone's gonna go, can you show my friend the trick where you separate the reds and the blacks? And that obviously kills any chance you've got of doing the trick again, really, because it's like, have you read this book where the murderer is the butler and everyone was shocked because it was so surprising? And you're like, Well, thanks. So I would tend to use that, or um, yeah, that would be a great follow-up because you could say, Well, I can show you something similar, shuffle the deck, memorize the thing, go through it, and then you know, it kind of builds on something they've seen before, looks similar enough, but adds a complication for the people seeing. So, yeah, I you know, there are other versions that you could do tricks afterwards, and maybe um was it Luminold, did you say it was called? Yeah, maybe that would be great. Yeah, that would be a great thing to follow it up if someone says, Oh, I've seen that before.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, we're gonna keep out of this world, thank God for that. Um, and we're gonna move on to the tail end of your original eight. So, number seven, you went with Strangers Gallery. Brist. All right.
SPEAKER_01:I have such good tasting tricks. That's the way it caused me so much problems. All right. Um, if I was gonna change Strangers Gallery, it would only be for another Bannon thing. And John's got so many good tricks, and I I think the thing with John is often his version of a trick is the definitive version. Um, the reason I chose Stranger's Gallery is because as far as colour changing decks go, I haven't seen a better one. There's ones that you could argue, oh, I like this one more because X or because Y, but there's nothing that kicks his ass. Like it's still a great, great trick. Um, and it's been basically unchanged since he published it in the 80s, maybe. Like it's been it's been awesome for 30, 40 years or whatever. So yeah, I'd maybe keep that, or I could change it for some of his other packet stuff. Spin Doctor is amazing, it's like a super simple twisting the aces, but then they all change colour at the end and they're examinable. Um or royal scam, that's an old trick that you might not know of John's, but it's this thing which even is one of the yeah, maybe we'll change it for Royal Scam. Because the thing I like about Royal Scam is even when I'm doing it, I kind of think, is this gonna work? This seems very fair to me. Like you have a bunch of aces, ace of spades, you count through them, they're all face up. You swap a face up one for a face-down one, and instantly the whole packet's face down. Then you swap them again, they're all face up, all face down. And then these four turn into odd colour backs, and then the others change into a royal flush, and then everything's examinable at the end. And you're like, even like even as I'm doing it, I'm like, is this gonna work? I've seen a lot of faces and backs, I don't really get how it is gonna ban out. Um, it's also a favourite trick of my friend Darius, who used to dem it of Blackpool, and I did I haven't been to Blackpool for a few years, but it was a shame because I was gonna set up a good gag thing. I had a set of just red-backed ace of spades, and I was gonna swap his dem set for one that was just a regular set of ace of spades because he wouldn't know until the end of the performance. When he would just end it and go, Oh, these just have regular backs, and these are just aces, because there's no way through the trick you would know until the end. But I never got around to it, which was a bit of a shame. So, yeah, I will swap, uh, I'll swap Strangers Gallery. Breaks my heart to do it because it is a fabulous trick. But um, Royal Scam is um, if you like your pack of tricks, it's just totally worth seeing, it's just brilliant.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think that's a worthy contender. Like we said in the original, I'm a big fan of Strangers Gallery, though, so I'm sad to see it go. But Royal Scam is also very good and does bring us to your last one. So are we keeping four card trick or are we getting rid of it?
SPEAKER_01:Uh we're probably gonna get rid of it because there's another trick that I've been doing so much recently over the last two or three years, which I've absolutely fallen in love with. So I think I am gonna have to change it. And it's just because it's, you know, I'm stuck on this island with four pieces of card doing Alex Elmsley's trick. I think it was brilliant. Um, but it I'm gonna lose it for now. I was tempted to replace it with another Alex Elmsley trick, but I'm actually gonna replace it with a trick I've been doing called Predictor, which has just been sort of I've been closing my lectures with it for like three or four years, or maybe two or three years maybe, but it's one of those tricks where the presentation has just tweaked every time I've done it, and now it's just like it just feels like the complete trick now. And it has something that we touched on in the variant chat where it just frustrates people so much, and there's something about that I really like. I do like really annoying people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I remember Sarah showing me this before you actually. Um it was a good few years ago now as well. I think uh it would have been I think it would have been about three or four years ago. Um, and we were in the the middle of a very busy shopping mall in a uh Costa, and she brought it out, and I loved it the first time I saw it, and then I loved it the second time I saw it, and then she brought out the third stack, and I loved it even more from that point on. Um, it really is such a great trick, how it builds uh in impossibility. It almost gives me vibes of Kane's variant in that it's this thing that just gets more and more impossible uh as you go along, and each different phase is so varied as well, which I really, really like about it. It feels interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, that's the art of construction, you know. It's like with particularly with self-working tricks, it's like you can you want three phases to a trick, really, and uh the art then is how do you make them different? How do you make the conditions seem fairer? Now, in predictor, it's the same method for all three stages, but to just do the same phase three times would be ghastly. Like there would be literally no merit. So, what do you do? So you start with one packet face down, then you say, Hey, we'll do it again, but this time we'll turn them face up so you can actually see. Well, that seems way fairer. It doesn't make any difference. Same method, same trick, but it seems fairer and seems more impossible and more annoying. And then, of course, I think the thing that really works with predictor is the last stage is you say, Look, I'm gonna give you a chance to break the system. And it feels like, you know, as annoying as the first two stages are, the third one, you're like, look, I'll show you the prediction in advance. Now you you know you can go rogue, get satisf, get your satisfaction from breaking the system. And then when you reveal that you've predicted that as well, he's just so infuriating. And I think that's a good presentation, you know. I used to um I used to love a magician called Bob King, who was an American magician, and he had a proper arrogant sort of vibe to him, but in a good way. Like he was just, you know, he could he would kind of go, I'm gonna show you this trick and it will fool you. And then I'll teach you how to do it, and then I'll show you again and it will fool you again, and you'll be really cross with yourself. That was kind of his style. And it it wasn't really confrontational, but it, you know, but it was kind of cool because you always told her you, you know, you don't want to present magic like a smart ass, you know, don't do you know, take the sting out of these things. And there was Bob years ago presenting it in that kind of quite not aggressive or confrontational way, but just that so self-assured. And the magic backed it up as well, you know. It was just it was that that good that you wouldn't have worked it out, especially if you're a layman. And so I think it's handled quite a lot of that in predictor of just you could imagine Bob just sat there leaning back, going, Yeah, do what you want, it won't make any difference. And you're like, Well, how won't it make any difference? I hate this. So, yeah, I think I would have to change, um, yeah, swapping predictor because it's just a trick that's been great to me. I've done it for so long, and yeah, I I just every time I get the opportunity to bring it out, I'm kind of pleased. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna enjoy this because you know it's gonna get a great reaction, and I get to feel clever and I don't have to do anything.
SPEAKER_02:So okay, so we have got rid of the four-card trick, poor Alex Elmsley, uh, and we now have predictor. Now, what's interesting is I didn't know when we started SOS how many people would change. So we've gone for 50% of your original list has changed.
SPEAKER_01:How many people, how many tricks do people normally change? What's the average?
SPEAKER_02:You are the first episode, Liam, so you tell me. Um we'll we'll find out in the future. We'll find out in the future.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I'm not I didn't okay. Oh I'm sorry to hear that whoever you wanted to open was unavailable.
SPEAKER_02:Um but yeah, it's very interesting that we've got 50% change.
SPEAKER_01:If you I think the you know, I would expect the list to be quite high because magic, so much magic comes out. Um, there's always so much new magic, and there's also so much old magic that if you're you know there's such a history and so many great tricks. If no other tricks were released, there would be no shortage of material for centuries. Um, but on top of that, there is new stuff every single day. There's tons of new stuff coming out. So I would I hope I guess it kind of depends though. If you're if you're gonna ask people who perform for a living, maybe they their lists would change less. Um, but yeah, more sort of casual performers like me, probably the list's gonna change more. I mean, I feel like there's you know, I could have done a whole new list and been quite happy with that, but some tricks are just like carved magic royalty. Like, who's gonna take out of this world off their list? Like, you know, be sensible people.
SPEAKER_04:The news is out. The 1914 has found a new home. We are proud to announce that Alakazam Magic are now the proud custodians of the 1914. What does this mean for you? Simply put, everything you love stays exactly where it belongs. The aesthetic, the quality, the philosophy. The website remains unchanged. Your instructional content is safe. The classics that defined the 1914 will be restocked and made available once again. And with our industry-leading infrastructure and customer service behind the scenes, the future is stronger than ever. But this isn't just about preservation. Work has already begun on a series of new 1914 releases, projects that have been quietly evolving for years and are finally ready to see the light of day. This is the next chapter, built on respect for the past, driven by belief in the future. Thank you for your continued support. Thank you for coming along with us on this journey. We are the new 1914.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you do get to make a whole new list because you've got five new items. You're the first person to ever pick these. But well, not all of them. One of them you didn't get the chance to have on your island because we were not allowing them the first season. Second season, we added the banishment. So, Liam, I want you to imagine that you're gonna dig a big sandy hole on your island, you're gonna throw something in there from the industry, and we're gonna pack it in there, never to be seen again. What would you like to banish?
SPEAKER_01:It would be easier to list the things I would keep. Um I think I think to be honest, and this you know, it's not gonna be controversial because it doesn't matter at all. But you wouldn't have to dig a very deep hole at all. The thing that I think I would like to have been able to get rid of is single trick downloads. I think that's what I would get rid of. And there's a reason for that, is because I feel like before that was an option or a thing, single trick releases, people consumed magic by either buying props, which is fair enough because you want the prop, you want to do the trick, or buying a book or a DVD that had a load of stuff in it. And it just represented much better value for money. You would spend your 30 quid, you'd get a book. Like if you bought The Art of Astonishment, the Paul Harry's book, when I bought that as about 30 quid, it was years ago. There's 80 tricks in there, right? And you read it and you know 80 tricks and 80 methods and 80 presentations, and then if you bought the second one, there's another 80 in there. So for 60 quid, you now know 160 different tricks, plots, methods, routines, and all the subtleties that are included in all of those. Whereas now, with a single trick being 20 quid, you get it, you learn it, you like it or you don't, but that's cost you 20 pounds for that one set of information, which is a much smaller set. And so I think overall, probably the amount of knowledge that's available to people who don't do this for a living or don't, you know, spend all their time doing it. If you've got a family, you've got a job, this is just a hobby. Your access to information about stuff that you would love is just much reduced by you having to buy individual tricks one at a time, individual downloads. And that's a shame, you know, it's kind of a shame. Um, I get why they do it, you know. I think it was a big thing, penguin magic at the time, years ago used to, you know, literally take a collection of stuff on the DVD, take one trick off, and then just sell that one instead. And they would sell more. And I kind of get that because there's like a numbers game here, right? If I buy a trick uh DVD and it's got 10 tricks on it and I like five of them, I like 50%, right? Whereas if I buy one trick and I love it, I love 100%. So I probably feel more satisfied as a consumer buying the single thing. But the problem is then, of course, I don't know the other nine tricks that were on the same on the collection for the same price. Whether I love them or not doesn't really matter. It's all information. And if you create your own magic, you know that from a trick that you absolutely don't like, there can be methods, presentations, ideas that you can use in tricks that you do like. So I feel like that would be the thing. So you wouldn't even have to dig, you wouldn't even have to shift a single grain of sand. It's all just you could just delete it all off the internet. No one has to do any ghastly digging in that heap. And um, I I think magic would be a better place in terms of people being able to learn more, do more, and just you know, get more out of the hobby if you read stuff or watched DVDs rather than individual downloads. Interesting, don't like I don't think that's going to be that controversial, but maybe it will.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think I'm kind of from the same period as you, where I grew up with multi-trick download, um multi-trick DVDs, rather. And even as a creator, that was always what you wanted. I always wanted to have a multi-trick DVD. And then over time, like you say, it's just gone to these like the single trick things, which is it's fine to an extent because if you know that you love it, what's the point in sitting through 15 tricks that maybe you're not gonna like? But that's the one that I wanted anyway, that's the one that I really care about. But at the same time, I've always been a massive advocate for lectures, and I think that's why I love and lean towards lectures more, and I've consumed so many lectures, because I would much prefer to sit through a two-hour lecture and get two or three little ideas on performance tips or uh, you know, the way something's said or the presentation, as well as methods, then you know, maybe just this one thing which is gonna serve me in this one direction. Um, and that's why I've always thought it's really strange that people don't go to lectures more. I think it's really bizarre that when you turn up to a lecture, you've got a a small room where there's quite literally millions of us out there performing every day. Why why not spend 20 quid, go to a lecture, consume all of that knowledge, and it's so much more varied, so much more interesting. You get the nuances in, you know. I I don't know. For for me, I'm still with you there. I I like multi-trick things. Um, and I do think that's what the 1914 did really well. When they came out, they started bringing back multi-trick downloads, and I think that people really like that. You know, the bul the billet masterclass was so cool because you you could literally learn everything, it was like a digital book, everything was just on this download, and you could pick and choose all those little bits from it. Um, so I think I'm I'm with you. I think that's a really, really good shout. I think bring bring back some multi-trick items.
SPEAKER_01:It would be great because I mean the thing is, even if you let's say you've got a thing with like say 15 tricks on it, and your your attitude is kind of like, well, I want this one trick, why should I have to sit through the other 14 tricks? It's like, well, if you feel like that, maybe magic's not for you. Like, you know, if if watching 14 tricks is a ghastly proposition for you, then you know, maybe look at doing something else. It's a bit it's a bit like practice. Like, you know, people should love practicing magic. I love practicing magic. If you don't love practicing it, you probably could find a hobby that you would enjoy more because you should enjoy working on it, you know. And so it's kind of one of those things. I think you get out what you put in, and you could definitely go, you know, and all this is relative, I don't want to upset anybody. It's fine if you just want to go, oh, I want to learn one thing so everyone thinks I'm super cool. Like more power to you, that's great. But if you're yeah, you if you just want to learn as much as you can and you don't really have a whole lot of time or money to just pay for these things individually. Like you say, lectures is a great point. You don't get many people going to lectures anymore. I don't think people realise how valuable it is because you get to see the person live, you get to ask questions about things that you know you might have had a problem with, you get and talk to them afterwards. When I lecture, the amount of people that come up and go, Oh, you know, how do you do your Elmsley count? Mine looks, you know, different, mine looks rubbish, whatever. And then you get to, you know, I'll sit down with you and show you how I do mine, and you can learn. Like that's that's the point, you know, of being a creator. Is like we would all in I want everyone to know as at least as much as me, because then magic could only be better if everyone had my knowledge but didn't have to put in the amount of time I have to. Do you know what I mean? It's like we all want you to get uh to know all the cool tricks you want, all the cool techniques so that you can learn everything right away. Um, and that's really difficult to provide in a single trick thing. But you know, as a creator yourself, you know you have to balance that with paying bills and like single trick things sell better. So you're kind of stuck in this thing of, well, what do I do? You know, one of the things that's why with Big Bly Media, we did all those big projects on, you know, the double lift, the Elmsley count, it's just to go here's so much stuff that you, you know, if you if you want to learn the Elmsley count, but you don't want to spend ages working out handling for yourself, just get this one thing. It'll cost you the same as one or two single trick downloads, but it's got 10 tricks on there, it's got a hundred variations. You will have everything you need in a fast food sort of context. And I think that's our job to provide as creators, and it's difficult if you're just going to sell each individual part. You know, it just makes it more inaccessible for people that don't have the money to buy all of this stuff as well, which is kind of a shame. I always remember being a kid, you know, being 14 and being into magic and just having no money, and you would just be like, oh, that looks cool that's come out. That's a shame I can't have it because it's just too expensive. It's a pricey hobby to get into anyway, let alone if you're going to start selling secrets individually for huge amounts of money.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm I'm with you. I think that's a worthy banishment. Single trick downloads are gone. We're bringing back the the knowledge. Uh, those are gone forever. But we do have some surprises for you on your island. We know that you've been there a long time. Thank you for sticking in there. I don't know where the search party went. We did send them out ages ago.
SPEAKER_01:Um, but I I told them the wrong direction and I sent them off. The idea of being sat in a little beach heart on a beach, you'll see in front of me. I'm I'm not wanting to be found, dude. I don't know how you got my number, but I'm I would I would be I would be defying any search party recovering me from that situation.
SPEAKER_02:I think it it bears the question how did you get on the island? Are we are Alakazam kidnapping magicians and putting them onto islands?
SPEAKER_01:Is that where we're getting them into a big cannon and then just firing it into the ocean? Just if you land on an island, you're lucky, like and then my snooker table got fired after me.
SPEAKER_02:Like well, you get a guest with you, okay? So you're allowed a guest with you. We're gonna bring them with us. This can be a guest who is dead or alive. All we want to know is why would you have that guest with you on your island?
SPEAKER_01:I wouldn't want a dead guest. What I'm just gonna have a body lying there.
SPEAKER_02:Not quite that, literally. We'll bring them back to life.
SPEAKER_01:We'll bring them back to life for you. Yeah, that makes much more sense. It's difficult, man. There's so many magicians that I love. Um, and uh and I'm not really much of a collaborative creator. I tend to do all these things myself because I just I don't know why, actually. I just don't actually collaborate with many magicians or jam. It's not really a thing that I do. I I just think like I don't really bounce ideas around that much. And I I I I'm, you know, I don't really know why. It's just magic is quite a solitary thing for me, and I kind of enjoy not being involved in the industry. I'm not on the Magic Cafe or on the Facebook groups or anything. I like a distance from it because it's been my whole life too much before, and it's all a bit consuming and a bit like all online communities, a bit horrible ultimately. Um, so I try and keep some distance from it, but then that does mean you don't get to collaborate, and you know, there's definitely disadvantages as well. So um I would love to, I would probably choose Alex Elmsley. Like I've got Holy Trinity of magicians, Alex Elmsley, Roy Walter, and John Bannon are my three favourite magicians of all time. Any of those would be great guests, um, but we'll probably talk about John later. So Roy Walton or Alex Elmsley would be my choices. Um, I met both very briefly, and I, you know, I love them both, but I would probably choose Alex because there was quite a lot of mystery about why he vanished from Magic for 20 years and then sort of came back, and then either, yeah, it's difficult. Either of those, I think I could I would love to talk about, just nerd out about the construction of card tricks and why you use some moves and not others, and the advantages and disadvantages. Either Roy or Alex would be great.
SPEAKER_02:Uh, I also love that you'll have to explain to him why you removed the four-card trick.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, well, do you know? I think he would be cool with it because when we uh we had him lecture at Cain Ma years ago and he said um uh he sat down, he was he was pretty drunk. Um he just sat down and he went, Um, I'm gonna show you uh five or six packet tricks with small piles of cards. None of them use that sodding count. So I think he would be quite happy as a lot as the elders county in there. It's one of those things where, for a lot of magicians, maybe that's the only thing they know him for, and there's quite an injustice in that. Like he had so much good stuff and clever stuff that um it would be cool to talk to him about other stuff of his that he's probably under the radar because that just caught on, you know, in such a big way. And kind of the same with Roy Walton, you know, people think of Oil and Queens and Cascade, and they are both great tricks, but he had so many brilliant tricks. Um yeah, it would be one of those two. Um if you can if you can reanimate people, maybe you could just do like a half and half, make me a Walton Elmsley clone.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not sure how ethical we're getting with this now.
SPEAKER_01:You're the one trapping people on a dead island and bringing cultures back. I don't know what position you're in to question my morals.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, we've we've uh just sent a DeLorean to go pick up Alex Elmsley. Uh, he's gonna be on your island very soon. Uh now what's lovely is in your original podcast, you actually spoke about the first time that you went to see Morley at Kmart, and you have such uh interesting stories, and you mentioned you know seeing Alex Elmsley for the first time and put putting those car packets down. So if you were to revisit a memory, if you were to have a memory replay, what would that memory be?
SPEAKER_01:It'd definitely be going back to sort of when I first started working with Owen at Big Blind Media. I just my life was a bit of a mess up until then. And I was in a retail job that I hated so much that sometimes I still think about it now and it pisses me off. That's how much I hated doing it. And Owen and Big Blind Media, and uh I think he was working with Dave Forrest at the time. They contacted me and were like, Oh, hey, you know, we'd like some of your tricks. Would you like to do a DVD of a whole bunch of tricks? And at the time, I was quite relieved because I was like, you know, I've got to do this horrible job, and I've not really got time for magic in any meaningful way. So at the time I was like, I'll do this project, and then I will be done with magic. And I'll be able to say, Well, at least I produced this DVD or these two DVDs with these tricks on. And that was going to kind of be an underline to it. That was gonna be the end, and then I would settle into my normal life. Um, and as it turned out, the job we arranged the filming, and I um a The time off to do the filming from my day job, and they refused my time off just before I left and said you'll have to work it. And I was like, Well, I'm not going to not do it. So your option is either, you know, I well, I'm going. That's your option, I'm going. And they were kind of like, Well, if you go, there won't be a job for you to come back to. And I was like, Okay, cool. Then good luck. At least I don't have to work my notice. That's kind of my thing. And so I went to Big Blind Media. I had I've all not really imposter syndrome, but I didn't really know what to expect because I don't socialise with a lot of magicians. I didn't know what tricks of mine they'd seen. So I just turned up, young 20-something. I had a bag of I'd booked so many tricks because I didn't know what they'd want to film, what they would like. I had like 30 tricks with me. Um, I had another load that I could do with a regular deck or whatever. And it was just so cool. Owen is like a literal rock star. He was a dude in a band. Um, you know, they got a location, there was catering. Um, we got to do something arty with the spectator where Dave was in a bunny suit because we wanted to do something cool. And he was, you know, we ended up with like this Donnie Darko thing of me performing to this rabbit. And it was just so fun and it was so cool. And they loved everything. We ended up doing two DVDs because they didn't want to cut any of the tricks. And from there, I kind of got, you know, Owen kind of looked out for me. I don't think he realized that I'd quit my job to do the project, but I think he knew money was an issue. And then as things came in, it was like, hey, do you want to do this? Do you want to make these gas? I'll pay you to make these gaps for this project. And over the course of time, there was enough support for me to eventually go, I can probably do this on my own. I still work with Owen and Big Bly Media all the time, but I now own KMR Magic, which is where I worked when I was a teenager. And it just was such a cool sort of exponential curve of just being able to do what I'm good at and what I enjoy, and enjoying my life and making a well, I say a friend, but Owen is like an older brother for me. Like he's like an older brother who has to look out for his like starving artist younger brother. So it was just so cool. And I would probably go back to there. Through him, one of the other memories I could have picked would have been the first time we did a John Bannon shoot because John Bannon was our fate, both of our favourite magicians. We love John. And um, you know, they say never meet your heroes, but that doesn't apply to the heroes I've met. John was just so cool, so friendly, and so badass. He he he loved sort of all the magic stuff, and he talked to you about all that, but he we were all into um Xbox games, and he plays loads of Xbox games and is conversant on that. He likes loads of weird music, which we all liked. And he was just like me and the coolest person you could imagine. Do you know what I mean? Who was happy to share all of his secrets? I was like, man, you know, all his stuff is so good. Like, how do you make it so good? Why have you chosen that move? And he said, Oh, I chose that because if you do this, then that means later on you're gonna have to do that, whereas if you do this move, it does both at once. He was just so generous with the information, and I feel like my magic has got better and better as I've got older and older, and that is because of my continued acquaintance with John. And all of that came through just Owen, just you know, taking a chance and being cool and looking after me, in a sense, I suppose. Um, yeah, so I'd go back to them. Sorry, that's a very long answer. This is all content for you, right?
SPEAKER_02:Well, so my my thinking there is we're on Unlimited we have another series called Journeys, and the idea is that I take guests on a little journey of their career, uh a shortened version. And one of the things that I've really noticed is that for a lot of performers, there's a real sliding doors moment in their journey. And yours certainly was the the moment in your retail job where you're almost forced in that that situation to make this choice, and that ultimately led on to where you are now. And had that not have happened, had you not have made that decision, had they not have put that to you, then you may not be where you are now. So there's so many people with the sliding doors moments, certainly in jobs as well, where they're basically their hand is forced, but had that have not have happened, they wouldn't be where they are now.
SPEAKER_01:No, that's it. I think you've got to, you know, it takes a certain personality type and it takes a lot of sacrifice as well. Like, you know, I loved my journey and I I I'm super happy with where my life is now. But I do get it kind of grates on me when people go, Oh, you're so lucky to do something that you enjoy doing. It's like it's not really I didn't win a job lottery and happen to get the one that I wanted. It was, you know, rough. Like leaving a retail job and then trying to pay for just somewhere to live by doing magic and not even performing, but creating and selling magic was tough. And it meant eating like ramen noodles three times a day because and and choosing the ones that were 9p instead of 11. Like, do you know you know, there's a lot of sacrifice that does get made as well, and it's not for everyone, it's kind of difficult because you don't I feel guilty going, oh, you know, it's funny like when you see people go, oh, you should just quit your job and go for it, man, because you know, you only live once. You're like, it's not the answer for everybody at all. There are definitely times in my journey where the idea of a regular income would have been like sexually arousing, you know what I'm saying. Um, so it takes a certain type of person, and you've got to be prepared to sacrifice a lot of stuff that other people take for granted if you're not super lucky. Now it's not like this was instantly a success for me. It wasn't like, you know, I literally just stepped into a business that then started turning over enough money to survive. It was a long, slow process that eventually got there. I think most people could probably do it much more efficiently because I'm not really much of a business creative as much as I hate that term, but that's what I want to do. I want to create the tricks. Selling them is kind of an inconvenience to some extent. It's not really the bit that I enjoy, but that's part of what you have to do to make it work. So yeah, if there's definitely going to be those sort of moments, and you know, you can either grab them or not, but there's this tendency to assume that if you haven't grabbed it, you've missed an opportunity. Well, that's not necessarily true. There are lots of people that make those decisions and it doesn't work. It just you don't hear about it. You only hear about the success stories of people going, Oh yeah, I make tons of money and I do a job I love, and you know, I've hooked a springly breakfast. Well, that's great, but you don't hear about all the people that go, I quit my job and my thing didn't work, and you know, now I'm doing the worst job just to get by. So it's a tricky one.
SPEAKER_02:Well, we've set up a little pop-up cinema screen on your island, and those memories are replaying for you. So you get to visit when you're when you're a little bit sad and you're a little bit down, you just get to watch those back. Um, but it does lead us to our last two new choices, which is a horror story. So we want you to write down this story, put it into a glass bottle, cork it up, throw it out to sea, never to be seen again. What would your industry horror story be?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, well, I've had things go wrong in performances, but I'm quite lucky in that I don't really attach any importance to it. You know, like when people you lecture and people go, Oh, what do you do if someone grabs the deck or says, Can I examine this or whatever? I go, no, you tell them no. Like it's no problem. Like, or if they grab it and they go, Oh, look, there's sticky stuff and that's how it works. That's not my life over. I don't, I don't care. Do you know what I mean? It's like I'm not trying to convince you that I'm a wizard. I'm just trying to be more interesting than not watching magic. So I've had things that go wrong. I did um I actually did uh Predictor at a lecture a few years ago and um just didn't reset it because I'm just an absolute div. So I bought out, built the thing up, did the last trick, and of course, because the trick is presented quite confidently and it's about predicting their every move, all three phases just went wrong. And that was pretty terrible. I was like, oh, this is not ideal, but hopefully the next one's out, and he wasn't, and it was kind of like, oh, this has all gone a bit bad. But you know, so yeah, I mean, I could stick that in there, but I don't kind of recall that and go, oh, that was horrible. I just go, Oh, I was an idiot. I would still laugh about it, I suppose, because I feel sorry for everyone watching it, going, and this is your big trick, is it? Like this is just three non-working faces of a self-working trick. So yeah, maybe I'd write that on there, but I can't say it was like a really horrible memory. It just still entertains me to think back that, like, oh, I can be that much of a potato that I could not reset a trick before getting stuck into it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think there's two points there. Number one is that resetting. Ever I I can't imagine that everyone who doesn't perform regularly or has a career over a certain time hasn't done that. I think everyone has not reset something or you know, put something in the right place or in the right pocket. Sometimes it's just I really should have had that receiver in that right pocket, um as opposed to wherever you have put it. Um so yeah, I think that's really true. But I think the other thing of don't don't give an importance to those moments. I think that's I think we care so much about everything being perfect every single time that we we almost catastrophize ourselves, right? We we make this up in our our own minds. But the truth is no one knows where you're going, what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's yeah, I think it's really important. It's like you're not you're not trying to be Yuri. Well, if you're not Yuri Geller trying to actually fool scientists into thinking you are the genuine article, it's probably not a shock that some of your cards have faces on both sides sometimes. Do you know what I mean? If someone finds that out, you don't get struck off, you don't have to leave your magic club, you don't have to kill the person and dispose of the body. You can all just get on as your life was before, and they won't think about it, and hopefully nor you, and you'll get a chance to do another trick that will work, and that'll be great. Like that's always been my thing. So I yeah, I have had things go wrong. I've had things go wrong on stage. I just doing a stage trick and missed a force and someone got the wrong card and then went through this whole thing and realised, and then just went back and swapped their card as I walked past and just swapped it with them, which and then we went through the thing and it worked, you know. And it was like, I think if you if you don't treat it as important, then it actually better equips you to deal with it when it does happen. And and you know, if something doesn't go right, it's not the end of the world, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Uh it reminds me very much of uh psychic mediums in that you know, you could have an hour session and they're gonna get, I don't know, let's say 40% of things wrong. But you it doesn't matter, your brain's only gonna remember the things that they got right, and you're gonna leave that guy bloody brilliant. She knew my brother's name. How does she not to mention that she didn't mention 15 names before your brother's name, and you know, you've just hit. I think even in magic, people tend to remember those really incredible moments, and those are the ones that they're gonna talk about when they talk to their friends, they're gonna go, oh my god, he did this incredible thing. They're not typically gonna go, unless you're like everything goes wrong. Um you know, because then the story is gonna be he just tried to find my card and didn't work, and then he, you know, tried to make a match light on its own and ended up setting his hair a light, you know. If you're really bad, then no. It was really funny.
SPEAKER_01:I thought it was good, true, true that entertainment to people, even if you've just set your hair on fire to do it, it's still fun.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so you and Alex Elmsley, you're sitting down on your island, you're watching that memory back on your cinema screen, you've just got rid of the uh horror stories and anything bad that's happened in your glass bottle, but you're about to watch a show. Now, this could be a magic performance that you never got the chance to see, just one that you wish you had the chance to see, or one that you did see that was such an incredible performance you wish that you could go back to that moment and see it again. So if you were to watch a show, what would it be?
SPEAKER_01:There's probably loads, you know, and loads of magicians that I loved that I didn't see work for layman, people like Eugene Berger, people like Tommy Wonder, you know, you see them at conventions, but you don't really and and you'd sometimes see the acts that they do, but normally it's magician-centric, they're not really doing the layman set because you know they're probably doing the same tricks as everybody else. So I think, you know, if you were going to watch a show, any of Eugene's Tommy Wonder's David Williamson, any of the performers like that would be wonderful. I think if I had a choice though, the thing I would probably sit and watch again, and and I would like one of those men in black memory wiper stick so that I could watch it again fresh. That would be cool. Um, would be a TV thing, would be John Lennahan Stuff the White Rabbit, which was this, if you don't know, it was this magic show from God knows, maybe late 80s, early 90s. It's that sort of era, I think. And the thing about it was that it was like it was John Lenaghan, who was great, he's very funny, he had some great tricks and a lot of jokes and stuff as well. But they had a loads of guest magicians on there who were proper magicians, magicians, Rene Levant, Jerry Sadowitz, that sort of people that you wouldn't normally get to see. And none of it was edited, none of it was um done differently. Like, you know, when you watch like the specials now, I mean, I don't really watch magic on TV because it's a bit like watching just the end result. You don't see the pre-show, you don't see the things that didn't work, you just see someone go, oh right, we grabbed your baby and we grabbed this car and mash, now you've got a baby car. How about that? You don't really see, you know, the the things that led up to that. It's a bit like watching a bakery show. If they went, here's the cake I made, but I'm not gonna tell you the ingredients or the the you know the method, and then you're like, well, that's got no interest to me, then really, because my interest is in seeing the trick done live and appreciating how clever that is. Um, not that I have any problem with people uh uh editing stuff for TV, because of course people are just gonna re-watch it, you have to protect the secret. But the thing about Stuff the White Rabbit was you just saw Rene Lavon doing his three um balls and the little cup with one hand, I cannot it cannot be done any slower, his oil and water, and you it was just incredible. And the fact that you knew it was live, you knew it was being done direct to camera, and you knew that it would look that good every time you saw it was part of the appearance. Tom Mullika was on there a couple of times as well doing the cigarettes, and it's just like if someone says, Oh, you know, I love I love magic, what would you recommend me watch? I always say Tom Mullika doing the cigarette thing because it's on YouTube and you can see him performing a car trick to a girl, throwing cigarettes into his mouth and swallowing them one at a time. You know, all this just ridiculous stuff, and it is it's got that thing of it is just live, it's what it would have been like if you had sat opposite Tom Mullika and he did the same jokes, he did the same bits, you've got the full experience of it. And yeah, there were so many great magicians on that that I think and it was also done in that kind of lo-fi, you know, it wasn't it wasn't pretentious in any way, it was just a group of people trying to be full and succeeding, um, you know, without without going, oh, we're trying to change the world or or trick you by editing the videos or whatever. It's just we know this bunch of cool people that can do cool stuff. Watch this. So, yeah, I think that would be what I would re-watch. I don't know what Ali Telpe would make of it. He might be bored shitless, but um that's what I would rewatch. He's watching your people on this island, maybe he's got Candy Crush on his phone or something again.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think that's a great choice and a great first episode of SOS. So we changed a couple of your tricks out. Your new list is Kane's variant, uh, Penetro, the Gamble, the Kick, Alpha to Omega, Out of This World, Royal Scam Predictor. Your banishment, which you didn't get in the first season, was single trick downloads. Your guest is Alex Elmsley, even though you ousted his trick earlier. Uh, your memory is your first time working with BBM or meeting John Bannon and working with him. Your horror story, it's not really a horror story, but the point that you gave was don't give importance to things when they go wrong. And your show was stuff the white rabbit. I think that's a pretty good uh SOS save our magic uh episode. I think, yeah, it's a great lesson. Um, we'll leave you back on your island with Alex Elmsley and all of your new stuff. I hope it helps you on your island. Hopefully it makes it a bit more interesting. Um, but yeah, last thing to say is thank you for coming back onto the island.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for having me. And like I say, I hope whoever you wanted to open this is available soon for you to interview.
SPEAKER_02:There was no one else that we would want, Liam, because you are the only one available.
SPEAKER_01:Um so make you the advantage of working from home, I'm here anytime. You need another episode, baby.
SPEAKER_02:You know in two years' time, we'll be back, don't worry. Uh amazing. So thank you all for listening. Now, one thing's gonna change a little bit with the podcast. One of the hardest things is the logistics of creating a podcast like this on a weekly basis. It is uh quite a task around everything else that we have going on. So we are now gonna run three versions of the podcast simultaneously. So we are going to have Stranded with a Stranger, of which we have a small back catalogue. So if you've sent in your list, thank you so much. Look out for it on an upcoming episode. We've also got uh Desert Island SOS, which you've just heard here, Liam. It was the very first episode where we get older guests, they come back on and we find out whether their list is the same or if it was changed, and we give them a few extra choices to find out more about them. And then, of course, we have the flagship podcast as well, which is Desert Island Tricks. So, just to keep you on your feet, we may have Stranded with a Stranger, we may have a Desert Island Tricks, we may have an SOS. We're not sure which one it could be, but that just makes it even more fun and interesting. So thank you all for listening. Uh, we are coming up to the end of season two, which is incredible. Thank you all for the messages, uh, for the support. Thank you for telling your friends and your magic buddies this has grown exponentially. So thank you so much to all of you. We're gonna be back next week with a version of our podcast, but which one would it be? So we'll see you next week. Have a great week. Goodbye.
SPEAKER_00:Hey guys, Harry here from Alakazam Magic. I hope you're enjoying the podcast. I'm just here to interrupt and tell you a little bit about the Alakazam Magic Convention. It has taken us 35 years to get to this date. However, May the 9th, 2026 will be the very first Alakazam Magic Convention. Now, I know you guys are super excited, maybe just as excited as we are. First of all, the venue is a 37-minute direct train from central London. The venue is then literally a 10-minute walk from the train station. There's hotels within a stone's road. There's restaurants nearby, and there's incredible food and drink on site. That's all without even getting into the magic side of things. We are gonna have four incredible lecturers performing throughout the day, including one person who's gonna be flying over to their very first UK lecture. We are buzzing to announce who those four are. Not only that, there'll be dealers on site and a place for you guys to jam and session and meet new friends. Where are the lectures gonna be held? This is my personal favorite bit about the Alakazam Convention. They're gonna be happening in one of the cinema screens. That means fully tiered seating, comfy seats, a drinks holder, and there will be a close-up camera on the jumbo cinema screen that will be giving you close-ups of all the little nuances that you're gonna need to see when the lecturers are performing. There will of course be a full gala show to end the evening off. You guys are not gonna want to miss it. The great thing is as well, on the Sunday, the day after, Alakazam Magic Shop, which is a two minute drive, will be open. So if you're heading down to the convention, why not stay overnight and come and visit our magic shop? Remember, May the 9th, 2026, tickets on sale now at Alakazam.co.uk. See you guys soon.