Jon Allen

A great trick hits harder when the audience already cares. That’s the heartbeat of this conversation with creator and worker Jon Allen, where we unpack eight routines he’d take to a desert island and the principles that make them land: meaningful framing, suspense over flash, and full-circle reveals. We start with Silent Treatment, a cinematic cold open that resolves like a twist ending, then move to Destination Box, where Jon breaks down the film-school difference between opaque surprise and clear-box suspense. He shows how a prop can be more than a gimmick, it can be an engine for social chemistry that primes the finale.

From there, we go deep on structure and control. Ring on shoelace turns audience assumptions into proof of impossibility. Double Back replaces “watch this” with fast, funny participation that lets spectators trap themselves in their own logic. Coin in Ball of Wool becomes theatre, not puzzle, distance, fairness, and a story you’ll retell for years. Then we shift tones with Pain Game, Jon’s safe, natural-looking Russian roulette where spectators make the choices. It’s danger with purpose, a metaphor for how often we trust others with our safety.

We close with two powerhouse pieces. Card Stab blends playful business with a serious, jaw-dropping reveal. And Any Card at Any Number gets a full reframe: it’s not about where the card is, it’s why those two decisions matter. Jon weaves chance, discovery, and personal history into an eight-minute closer that earns every beat of anticipation. Along the way, he banishes ripoffs and empty patter, shouts out Michael Close’s Workers, and reveals the maker tool he won’t live without.

Jon's Desert Island Tricks: 

1. Silent Treatment 

2. Destination Box 

3. No Risk 

4. Double Back 

5. Coin in Ball of Wool 

6. Pain Game

7. Card Stab 

8. Any Card at Any Number 

Banishment. Rip-off’s

Book. Michael Close’s Workers Series 

Item. Polymorph 

Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk

Chapters

• 0:00 The Power Of Starting With Truth
• 1:30 Introducing John Allen And His Criteria
• 8:46 Silent Treatment: Cinema, Structure, And Opener Philosophy
• 19:56 Destination Box: Suspense vs Surprise
• 30:35 Ring On Shoelace: Control And Impossibility
• 37:17 Double Back: Engagement Over Flash
• 46:28 Coin In Ball Of Wool: Story And Theater
• 58:00 Pain Game: Safe Danger And Real Stakes
• 1:06:37 Card Stab: Fun Framing, Serious Finish
• 1:13:43 Any Card At Any Number: Meaning Over Math
• 1:25:21 Banishments, Books, And Tools
• 1:32:40 Blackpool Teasers And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

And again, just throwing something out there, I I always like to start off with a truth. Because if you start off with a truth that people can understand or appreciate, then they're more likely to engage with you and to to go along with you. You know, if you start off by saying, This queen, she can talk to me. This playing card, she can talk to me. Well, no, she can't. But if I if I talk to the audience, I say, you know, you're thinking the hand's quicker than the eye, etc., I'm going to show you that's not the case. And I show them the cards, and I said, I'd like to remember the values and suits of the cards. And so I'm engaging with everybody. So I'm showing them, okay, firstly, how many cards? And most people will say four. Some people won't answer. Some people will say five or seven. And it's just this interaction between me and the audience. And so we go through the questions, and I'm not doing a trick. This is it, this is why I think it's it's it differentiates it from other things. I'm not telling you a story. I'm not just showing you a trick or showing you something I can do. And then that's that moment when I say to them, unless the hand's quicker than the eye, so I come full circle within this trick.

SPEAKER_02: 1:30

I'm very excited for today's guest because we have a prolific inventor. I have so many magic friends, and I would anticipate nearly all of them have either used one of this man's effects or still use it, including our very own Harry, who uses one of these effects. Um, I also remember seeing silent treatment for the first time when I was younger, and absolutely loving the premise and the plot. I also used Perfect Score for a very, very long time until uh I wore it out effectively. I need to get another one. And I know that so many of this man's effects and routines are going to be super practical, and I think it's gonna be a really interesting list. So, today's guest, of course, is the wonderful John Allen. Hello, John. Hello, Jamie. How are you doing? Uh very well now that you are here, and we finally get to find out what your list consists of.

SPEAKER_03: 2:29

Yay. Well, I I thank you for saying that your friends use some of my products. You didn't say that you do.

SPEAKER_02: 2:35

I used to do perfect score, which I I I use so much that uh I basically ended up wearing through it. So uh that's definitely one of my favorite products ever, I think. It it saved me so much.

SPEAKER_03: 2:48

If you want one, just ask. You know, don't miss the story.

SPEAKER_02: 2:52

It is just such a brilliant uh prop. But yes, I think all of your effects are brilliant. Uh, and I know that this is gonna be a great list. How did you find putting your list together? Did you go for a certain thing? Was this like your working set? Were these things that you always wish you could perform?

SPEAKER_03: 3:09

Well, this was the thing, because when you say, you know, you get to perform eight tricks, um, there are so many tricks in magic that I would like to perform, but I just don't, either doesn't suit me or my style or whatever. But I just love the the effect, you know, uh like Copperfield's flying, for example, you know. But I'm not gonna put that on my list, even though it's just it's just fantastic. So yeah, these are pretty much for my working repertoire. Because if I'm stuck on a desert island, which I will be, then you know, it's it's the tricks that I really I want to perform, and I have performed, and I enjoy performing them because the more you perform something, the more you learn to love it, and you get little bits of business and stuff like that. So it's it's a balance between which which tricks will actually blow people away, and which tricks do I absolutely love to perform. So, yeah, that's it. It wasn't easy. I mean, I had to cut it down from a good couple of dozen to eight. So if you can change the format to you can bring 24 tricks, it's gonna be easier.

SPEAKER_02: 4:22

Well, in one of the positions, we've not had someone so far say that I want to bring a close-up case. And inside that close-up case is X number more tricks. We've not had someone do that.

SPEAKER_03: 4:33

We haven't until now.

SPEAKER_02: 4:35

I always thought that'd be a great hack, but no one's done it. Um, in terms of your tricks as well, because a lot of your routines are very commercial, they're they're made for real-world workers in real situations, they're very everyday kind of tricks, every gig kind of tricks. So, how did you find putting your list together? Have you put many of your own things in? Because I can imagine a lot of the tricks that you invent, I'm guessing, and please tell me if I'm wrong, are literally because you wanted to perform them at some point.

SPEAKER_03: 5:08

Yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty much one of the criteria, kind of the main criteria's. Um, I I produce tricks that I want to perform, so maybe it solves a problem or there's an effect that I thought about I want to do. Um, so yeah, I I I'm I am jealous when I see people who who release toys in the nicest sense. Because you know, we we we all love magic and we go into the deep psychology and everything like that. But if someone produces a really fun toy or little gimmick, we we just love all that stuff as well, you know. So when I, you know, when I see people and they've got a little carry-on case at a convention with about 30,000 pounds worth of little packet tricks or little tiny items that magicians will buy. And I'm there with you know big things, heavy things made of wood and metal. It I'm so jealous of that. But you know, I I the tricks I create is it it's it's things I want to perform. So that's yeah, that that's the criteria. And uh you you will see you, I won't tell you how many of them, how many of my things on the list. And what I would say for people listening, I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, um, and I'm gonna heap praise on you here, Jamie, is you have no idea what people choose beforehand. We haven't given you a list, you're not pretending not to know. So everything that you ask people or every all the comments or observations are done on the fly. So uh you you are to be applauded for that.

SPEAKER_02: 6:42

Well, we're over a hundred episodes in, and I think it makes it so much more interesting for me. Um, because I quite like doing what everyone at home does, and guess what you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03: 6:54

Um so it's a hundred episodes and no one has complimented you.

SPEAKER_02: 7:00

We get lovely, lovely comments at um all of our um conventions and events about the podcast. So we get lovely, lovely comments. Um, and I'm sure we're gonna get lovely comments about this because I can imagine everyone is guessing which of your own effects that you've put in.

SPEAKER_03: 7:16

Um you said also you like to guess. How many of my tricks do you think I'm gonna put in my my eight?

SPEAKER_02: 7:24

I would hope at the very minimum there would be two. However, you do have the non-magic item, which you might be able to slip perfect score in there as well. So it could be three items. Um but I I would hope that there's at least two because you know, silent treatment is such a prolific effect, it's such a phenomenal piece of magic that it would be sad not to see you perform that on your island for forevermore.

SPEAKER_03: 7:58

Um, don't go into any other names of anything, we'll we'll see. Um and also, can I just say you you you are not allowed to be off by one? I'm not allowing that. Off by two? Off by six or seven.

SPEAKER_02: 8:13

Amazing. Right, let's get into it then. So, if this is your first time listening to the podcast, the idea is we're about to maroon John on his very own magical island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks, banish one item, take one book, and one non-magic item that he uses for magic. Particulars, who's there, what's there, all that good stuff. We do not mind. This is in John's own imagination. With that being said, let's go to this magical island. I'm sure it's nice and sunny there, unlike here, which is very cold and rainy, and find out what's in John's position one.

SPEAKER_03: 8:46

So for my first trick, I think this is kind of come as a bit of a surprise to people because they may not think that uh this is a sort of thing I do. Uh, but it's the silent treatment. Yes, that's that's gonna be that's my my first choice, probably the first thing in the suitcase. Silent treatment is uh a routine best suited uh as an opener. And if you've if you've seen love, actually, there's the classic scene of the man standing outside of the door with the placards. So it's a little bit like that. And the the writing on the pages is effectively the routine. It's what I would be saying if I could talk. So it asks uh I I tell people I'm gonna do this trick without saying anything. I ask for someone to help me out, and I ask them to think of a card, and there's a little bit of byplaying as to whether it's a red card or a high card, all of that. I ask them to name their card, and the ending goes, uh, would you like to know why during this entire time I haven't opened my mouth? And people see a card, a folded card, come out of my mouth. I open it up, and it's the card that they named. And that is the silent treatment.

SPEAKER_02: 10:05

Now, I think that this is one of the best sort of stand-up pieces of magic that I've seen. Like I I would say it's probably one of the first ones that was packaged as a ready-to-go stage routine or or parlor routine. Yeah, and I've seen so many people perform it. For me, the best thing about this is the conceit of I'm not talking, the audience don't question why you're not talking, and then and they maybe think it's a bit strange at the beginning, and then at the end, when they realize why you haven't been talking, what I love about that is it's almost like a uh a presentation magic trick. It's like you're turning the presentation on them and they're going, Oh, that's that's interesting. So he's not been talking because he's got something in his mouth. So I think that's what's so lovely about it, is you have the the presentation, which is almost like its own magic trick in itself, and then you have the actual card coming out of the mouth.

SPEAKER_03: 11:06

Well, this goes back quite a few years to when I was watching a film in a in a cinema, uh movie theater for the Americans. Uh it was Nicole Kidman's film called The Others. So there may be some spoilers. Uh for those that haven't seen it, I may spoil it. I came out of that film, and I distinctly remember before I even left uh the cinema, I said, I want to come up with a trick that has that premise. Because films are just a fantastic source for sort of premises uh for magic tricks. So for those that don't know it, it's a film about a mother and two her two kids living in a house. The fathers, I think, left or died at war or gone off, and think strange things happen. So they think that there's ghosts in the house because they'll close the curtains, and the next thing they'll uh the they'll be opened. Uh, doors that were closed will be opened and and various things like that. And it's not really a horror, but it's psychological. And she's scared for her kids. Then there's a there's a bit towards the end where things are building up, and all of a sudden you get these papers being thrown into the air, and it makes no sense. And you're going, hang on, what what's happened? And then you see uh a medium um in a seance, and you go, Oh, hang on, what have I missed? Hang on, hang on. And then you realize that the the mother and the kids who are looking for the ghosts are the ghosts themselves, but they never realized. And it's at that moment you realize also that's why the father never turned never came back, that's why the priest doesn't turn up, that's why the house is like this. And it was just this twist that I've ruined for everybody that you just don't see coming. It's not like the sixth sense where okay, you can guess that he got shot in 10 minutes, there's another one ruined for you. And I just love the fact that there were all these unanswered questions, and it was this moment at the end where I go, hang on, what did I miss in the film? And then you can go back and realize. And I love that. And that that's the difference, I think, that with magic. So often magic is this you you get you go on this linear journey, and then there's a bit of a curveball at the end, a bit of a left turn. So I say that if you make if you find a uh a banknote in a lemon, you don't go, oh, that's why I put it in the envelopes and boom. Or if you find a card in a box, you don't, or an envelope, you don't say, Oh, that's why it kept coming to the top of the pack. You know, it's always this surprise at the end. But with the silent treatment based on this film, is as you said, I come out, or whoever's doing it, and come out, and you're not talking. And they don't know why, and they're in and they're interested, and this this will lead on to something else as well. But you're not talking, you're doing the routine, there's some fun stuff, they don't know why, but they're going along with it. And then this moment of, would you like to know why? And for me, that's that hang on, what did I just miss? Would you like to know why during this entire time? Yes, what I haven't opened my mouth, and I just pause, and then I can see the look and I can hear them, and they go, Oh, and it's in his mouth, and that's this realization and this understanding of why I haven't been talking. So I show the I show the card and I I show them that's why I haven't been talking, and it's it's this lovely full circle effect. Uh, and so that's kind of how I came up with it. And then as an opener, you know, magicians online or wherever will always say, I'm doing a show and I need this quick, flashy opener. I need I need something quick to grab their attention. And the silent treatment is the complete opposite. And for me, you don't want to grab their attention, you need to get their attention and keep it. So if you if you do this quick effect, you got their attention and then it's over. But the silent treatment, they are they are just wondering why you're performing like this, why you're not talking. They never for a moment, I believe, think the card is in your mouth. Um, because I'm not covering my mouth or anything like that. I'm simply not talking, and they think it's maybe part of the act. Uh, and so that's why I absolutely love this as an opener. And the one final thing I'll say about this, and then you can ask me a question if you like. I see this in the same way as the opening of a James Bond film. Pause for people to go, what the hell is he talking about? Because if you think about James Bond film, it usually starts with him on some mission. You don't really know who he's after, what he's after, sometimes even where he is, why people are after him. But then that little vignette is resolved and he escapes, or he does, you know, he goes off and wherever. Then the titles start, and then the film starts. So for me, this is the silent treatment, is it's this self-contained uh trick. And I'm not talking, it gets to the end, and now I can do my introduction and go on with the uh go on with the uh the show. Uh and for all those reasons, as well as the fact that I created it, but for all those reasons, I just love the silent treatment.

SPEAKER_02: 16:38

Well, I think that you've absolutely achieved what what you set out to achieve. And we've spoken on the podcast before about being in the room the first time a trick is performed. And for me, I can imagine it was such an interesting thing for you the first time you did it because it's weird, right? It's it's out of the ordinary, it's at the time, unlike anything that was around at the time. So for you performing it, you don't know how it's gonna go down, you don't know how people are gonna react. But I guarantee that that first reaction for you was that light bulb moment of, wow, I've got something special here.

SPEAKER_03: 17:17

Yeah, well, the first time I ever performed it for an audience was actually at Factors. Uh, and this was the original, which was kind of it was smaller than I wanted it to be small enough to fit in the pocket, but big enough to be to be seen in a sort of a parlor situation. And so, yeah, there were all these magicians, and I I like the fact that they they wouldn't have seen anything like it before. So, if I go, if I could just go off on a tangent here for a moment, is that I mentioned about the magic being linear with a surprise. The other thing with the silent treatment, which you don't really get in magic, is the the magic, the the magical effect at the end is the reason for doing the trick in the first place. So that's why I should have explained a little bit more about a bank notes and a lemon, but that's not the reason why you did the whole routine in the first place, you know. But the the the revelation of the card being in my mouth, that's the whole reason that I haven't been talking and I've been doing the trick like that. So there's it's very rare in magic for the effect to be the reason for performing the trick in the first place, you know. So, yes, the the first time I did it, it was at Effectors, all these big names in magic, and I kind of didn't care because I knew they hadn't seen it, and I could just sense that you know they didn't know where it was going. It was just such a great feeling, and then that moment of, would you like to know why during this entire time I haven't opened my mouth? There was such a buzz around the room because they realized that oh, you absolute, you can bleep this out. Um, and I love that moment, and and it was it was it was a really special moment for me. The original was uh there was a picture that people could look at with a load of different cards. The one thing I'd wanted for the longest time was for people just to be able to think of any card. That was always my my goal, which I was never able to achieve for different reasons, and then only just recently um I did come out with a stage version, and this is the one where people can name just any card, and so I feel it there's been a few iterations and a few versions of the silent treatment, but I do feel that with the stage version, I never use the word ultimate, but this has just got everything that I that I'd ever wanted from it.

SPEAKER_02: 19:47

Amazing. Well, let's find out where this leads us to then. So we've got a heavy hitter in at number one. Let's find out what you put in position number two.

SPEAKER_03: 19:56

So, number two is, and again. This may come as a surprise to people, may not. The destination box. So you are two for two at the moment, I think. You said I would have two of my own, but destination box, absolutely. The destination box is a wooden box with a padlock, which I hand out at the beginning of a close-up set. And I go on and do whatever it is I'm going to be doing in the set. And let's say there's a card trick. Then at the end of the set, I ask for the box back. I open it up. Inside are two items. One of them is a small metal tin. I open up the tin, and inside is a perfectly folded playing card. And it's opened up and it's the sign card that I was using in my set. So they've been holding on to this locked box inside of which is the signed card.

SPEAKER_02: 21:02

Now we've had a few people on the podcast speak about magicians having strange props. But what I love about Destination Box is it falls in between both worlds because it's not a strange box, it just looks like a very nice wooden box that maybe you had for, I don't know, coins or something like that when you were younger. But it does feel strange that someone may be carrying it around. But I think what I really like about that is the intrigue. If I went up to a table with this box and placed it in the middle of the table, the first thing people are gonna say is, what's in that box? They're gonna want to know what's in that box, and no one's questioning why you have it. They all they care about is what's gonna happen with that prop.

SPEAKER_03: 21:51

Yeah. Well, first of all, if magicians weren't allowed to use things that looked weird, we wouldn't have illusionists. But having said that, uh yes, you're right. I I know that some people have have said magicians carry around strange things. Uh, even a piece of rope to some people is is a weird thing to for magicians to carry around with you. Uh, but I don't agree with that. So, yeah, this locked box, as you said, if I was to put it down, people would want to know what it is. And I should say this is this is possibly the largest cards to box on the market, but that is a good thing. I I love reading things where people say, but it's huge to carry around with you. And I said, you know, I'm not exactly wheeling a trolley behind me with a forklift truck to get it on the table. I'm holding this box, and as you said, it has intrigue. And for me, I I actually like this for a few reasons, and you'll see this with a couple of other things, is uh you would I can imagine people saying you take the box and you put it on the table or you give it to someone to look after. But I I feel that magicians should look for what else you can do with your props rather than just use them for the tricks. And the reason I say that is one of my one of my opening lines, I mean, I'm very fluid with my opening lines, but if I once I got the table's attention, I show them the box and I say, who's the most trustworthy person sitting at this table? And that just sparks who knows what. You know, if one person puts their hand up, you never choose that person. Here's a tip never choose the person who really wants to get involved because that's going to lead to trouble. You might get everybody pointing to one person, you might get everybody pointing to different people, you might get nobody. And all I've done is I've asked people who, you know, I've I've shown the box who's the most trustworthy person, and already I'm engaging with the people. Now I've I love it when um everyone points to one person, and I I've had this, I nearly put it on the trailer. I said to the person, what do you do that your friends think you're trustworthy, but you don't? And I swear to God, she said this, she said, I'm a police officer. Right. So you don't think you're trustworthy and you're a police officer. But then I've I did it years ago, I did it at Bar Mitzfront the the rabbi's table. Who's the most trustworthy? The rabbi pointed to somebody else. Like, you know, and so this, and when everybody points to somebody else, it's just so much fun because great, not one of you is trustworthy. You know, you can't all work for Nat West or you know, the government or whatever. So rather than just saying, here's a box, I'm gonna ask you to look after it, just do something with it to engage people. It's it's so simple and easy, and yet it can just lead to so much. You know, and when someone, when you do give the box to someone who's either trustworthy or the audience, or you know, the group think they're the trustworthy person, what do you do for a living? They might be the accountant, they might be the MD, you never know. It just gives you something to work with. I think too many magicians are just in uh just focused on the trick. So that's you know, that's why I I you know I'm I I used to do this every single table for about 15 years. And without it, I think someone else has said this. I didn't bring it with me for one gig. I had no idea what to do to open. This was years ago. I just didn't know how to open because that had always been my opener, you know. Um, and it's not just an opener, it is it's a it's the closer as well. So when people say uh, you know, they talk about closing effects. You know, if you do brainwave, uh that's a closer, you can't do anything afterwards. If you do a card on ceiling, you can't do anything, that's a closer. And I go, well, just do another trick. You know, the audience don't know that's a really that's a strong, you know, you might think it's really strong, but I've done the jumping fingering, you know, when it jumps from finger to finger, that freaks people out. And yet we think it's just so simple. But if I've hit given something else at the beginning of the of the uh set, and then I ask for it back at the end, I'm coming full circle. So the audience have prepared for the finale. So anything else I do after that, it's an encore because I have finished. Um, and so and there's there's plenty of other reasons why I love this bar. We we could be in an hour just for giving out the destination box.

SPEAKER_02: 26:46

Well, I think even so the one compliment that I give you is the build quality of it. I think the just one the the there's several, but the the first thing that comes to mind was that the quality of it is it's genuinely phenomenal. It is a real workhorse piece of magic. This this thing's gonna last you forever. It's so well built and constructed, it's incredible. Um, but the other thing is uh going back to sort of what you said there, so this is a full circle moment for you at your your table set. You introduce it at the beginning and then it closes out your your table set. And for me, I had versions of this in the past that were plastic see-through things, and they aroused so much more suspicion than the destination box would for me.

SPEAKER_03: 27:37

Well, I I do have, dare I say, the best card to clear box as well. For me, I it's it's an old um paper clip holder. You could you can get a little clear box to hold paperclip, so yeah. Um but in but in actual fact, it's it's interesting to talk about the clear boxes or paragon 3D versus destination box. Uh, because it's the difference between uh suspense versus surprise. So with a clear box, so if you've got Paragon 3D, which for those that don't know, there's a you can see a folded card, and it's it can be looked at from every angle. It's not just you have to look at it from head on, otherwise you give the game away. So I could leave that in the middle of the table, give it to someone to look after, but there's a folded card. And so they know it's a folded card, they're doing a trick, uh, but you know there's a suspense of oh my god, is that going to end up being the card? And there's this suspense. But with the destination box, which is opaque, they can't see in it, they obviously don't know what's in it, so you've got that surprise. Um, and I was always told in going back to films, we're talking about films earlier, is there's a bomb under a table that people are sitting at. Now, if you can see the bomb, you've got the suspense of wondering when it's going to go off. But if you have no idea there's a bomb there and all of a sudden there's an explosion, you've got the surprise. And so that's what the difference is between the clear boxes and the uh the uh the opaque ones that with the destination box. Um and the other thing I should say with the destination box as well is um because sorry, because people don't I get just emotional talk about it, because people don't know what's in it, because it's when I when I open it up, they don't see a cart, they see two items of which one of them is is a tin. And so I'm ahead of the game to start with. And now I open up the tin and they can see it, and I take it out extremely cleanly. So it's slow, it's clean, and I just unfold it very theatrically. And so there is this suspense of oh no, no, no, it can't be no, oh, it is. And this was I believe this the destination box was the first card to box where people could take the card out of the um the item for themselves. You know, you always have to do a move. Um, but with this, they can take the card out of that tin. But I would say that I actually I used to do it like that because they can take the card out. But then I slowly realized that no, I can control the theatre of it all if I take the card out of the box. So, you know, it's I wouldn't say whether one is better than the other, it's just whether you get a surprise or you get a suspense.

SPEAKER_02: 30:28

Well, I think that's another great choice in at number two. Let's move on to number three. What's in your third spot?

SPEAKER_03: 30:35

So number three is actually a recent uh addition to what I do. Um and it's um ring on shoelace. Huh. Um specifically, well, I use no risk now. But ring on shoelace is phenomenal. So for those that for those that don't know, it kind of gives a game away when it's ring on shoelace, but you borrow a finger ring, it vanishes by your favorite method, and then everyone looks down and tied on your shoelace is the ring, and you give it back to them. That's it.

SPEAKER_02: 31:16

So a second ago you mentioned ring on shoelace, and then you alluded to it changing because you said, but now I use no risk. So did you use one before no risk? And if so, what what was the reason for going to no risk in particular?

SPEAKER_03: 31:35

Well, I did use I did use another version, um, and I felt that there was uh that there was a there's a moment where I'm not in control of the ring, I'm I'm at the mercy of physics, and I could never guarantee that physics wouldn't let me down. So I absolutely loved it. I love the method, and um, I really wanted it to work. I really did. But for me, when I when I'm not in control, it's like if you flick a playing card in the air, you're at the mercy of wind and currents and whatever. You will never guarantee to land a card in exactly the same place every single time. And so that's why I um I move to no risk because, like the uh like it says, there well, there it's not there is a minimal minimal. There there is a moment, like every trick has a moment, but it's so minimal, and I'm I'm far more in control of it. Uh, and so that's why I I've just gone with this. I did see the black pool and it fooled the hell out of me. And then I saw it and I went, I just love that. Um, and so yeah, now now I now I do I do ring on shoelace. So yeah, absolutely love the effect.

SPEAKER_02: 33:04

Now, were there any trade-offs between the two versions? So one would presume that maybe something has to be altered for no risk in order to facilitate whatever's going on.

SPEAKER_03: 33:15

Yes, and I'm fine with that. Um I I know reading online, we are talking in code here, aren't we? But I know a lot of people say that they have to ruin something and it's now out of commission for anything else, which is simply not true. If if it is out of commission, you'll you've done something wrong. Um, but I I think it's worth it. Um, and it it's not just for the effect, and and you'll see this again with for some other things. It's it's not just the effect is brilliant. Uh, you know, we all have the magic effect, but for me, it's what I'm able, what can I show, or what can I talk about, or what's in it for the audience. Uh, and that's what I'm able to get with uh with the ring on shoelace.

SPEAKER_02: 34:05

I think what's very evident in your list so far as well is technically we have three objects to impossible locations. Um, so could well kind of silent treatment is you know, it's an object in an impossible location, destination box is a card in a box, and no risk is is the ring. But you very much have this thing for this almost like twist ending in your tricks. Each one of these you do not know where it's going until it's too late for the audience to catch up.

SPEAKER_03: 34:32

Yeah, well, as I said, the the the silent treatment is a reason. Well, the card is in my mouth because I'm not talking. That's that's that's why I can't talk because I've got the card in the mouth. So it's not like a card to impossible location. I I I had a discussion with some people, some friends of mine, and I said, I don't see this as a prediction effect. You know, um it's the card is in my mouth, that's why I'm not talking. The destination box, it's it's simply impossible. You know, uh people like people like to see that. I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of things that go with it, but it doesn't have a deeper meaningful reason for doing it. No risk. My way of doing it, I don't just want to go here. Let me let me borrow a ring, look, it's vanished, or I'm doing a ring on string or something else, look, it's vanished. But if you have a look on my shoe, it's there. All right, well, well, okay, well done. So for me, I go, you know, I I as you said, you can find an object in any number, any number of objects in any number of impossible locations. So when I'm choosing things, I I have to think, well, why am I choosing to do that? Why would I want to do this instead of a built-a lemon or instead of a card to box or instead of so for me, it is the impossibility of it. You know, you could talk about magicians, people the audience understand or think they know that magicians are trying to distract them. Now, if I'm standing up, I can say to them, you know, you you may think that magicians try to distract you. Do you think I've distracted you at all? And they might say yes, they might say no. Do you think I could have distracted you enough to bend down and tie my shoelace? No. Now I can look down and they can see it. So I've I've engineered it that they themselves have just admitted that there is no way I could have distracted them to tie my shoelace, let alone putting the finger ring on there and tying my shoelace. So I've set up the premise of the finale, and that's why I love it, because it is so impossible for them to conceive of me putting the ring on and tying my shoelace. And that's why I do it. That's why I just love doing it.

SPEAKER_02: 37:11

Well, I think that's a great one in at number three. Let's move on to number four. So, what's in your fourth spot?

SPEAKER_03: 37:17

Number four is, and you may have had this on your bingo card, uh, double back. Now, again, for those that don't know, double back is uh is my version of um Dr. Daly's last trick. Uh, but with this one, I show um I have two kings and two fives, and I'm just asking a series of questions about them. So it's the the effect basically is the two fives go on the table. I'm holding the kings in my hand, and now I'm holding the two fives in my hand, and the two kings are on the table. That's that's the extremely short version of it. Um, but there is so much in this that I absolutely love, I love, love, love this trick.

SPEAKER_02: 38:08

This is another one. I remember seeing this for the first time, I don't know, it would have been a good long time ago now. And I think what got me with this is the fairness of what's happening and also the minimal amount that is going on at the same time. Because I think with when you have fewer props and there are fewer things in play, then there's less for your brain to go, well, it must be that or it must be that. It's so clear, concise, um, and absolutely impossible. It it properly, properly done my head in when I first saw it. I couldn't understand what was going on at all.

SPEAKER_03: 38:50

Yeah, well, this was actually the first product I ever released. Um, and it just I had people coming over. It was it was just the best thing. It was a IBM convention in San Diego, I think it was, and I had people, I was um on Paul Richards stand, he gave me a little a little spot, and I had people coming up, show my friend this trick. And I I swear I even had people saying, I was told to buy this trick, and they just handed me money. They didn't even want me to see it. And it was just this, oh my god. And I've done this trick more than any other trick. Um we're in we're into the thousands, maybe even ten thousand, whether it's walk around or tables. Um, I if I can, I will always start with this as my first effect. You know, there may be some introductory things, handing out the box, um, but if I'm doing a card trick, I will pretty much always start with this. And the reason is again, what I what I said before about don't just do the tricks for themselves. What why are you performing this trick? What's in it for the audience? So for me, apart from being a really strong effect, my presentation is whenever people see magicians, they say it's the quickness of the hand that deceives the eye. And magicians are always trying to distract you. So that's how I start off. And again, just throwing something out there, I always like to start off with a truth. Because if you start off with a truth that people can understand or appreciate, then they're more likely to engage with you and to go along with you. You know, if you start off by saying, This queen, she can talk to me. This playing card, she can talk to me. Well, no, she can't. What the hell are you doing? You're an adult. But if I if I talk to the audience, I say, you know, you're thinking the hand's quicker than the eye, et cetera, I'm going to show you that's not the case. And I show them the cards, and I say, I'd like you to remember the values and suits of the cards, and so I'm engaging with everybody. If someone doesn't want to engage, I don't care. So I'm showing them, okay, firstly, how many cards? And most people will say four, some people won't answer, some people will say five or seven. And my reply is always if you don't know the answer to this first question, the rest of them are going to get pretty difficult. And it's just this interaction between me and the audience. And so we go through the questions, and I'm not doing a trick. This is it, this is why I think it's it's it differentiates it from other things. I'm not telling you a story, I'm not just showing you a trick or showing you something I can do. I'm just going through some questions with you about to prove that the hand isn't quicker than the eye, we're not distracting. And then there's that moment when I say to them, if the if uh the uh on the table of the two fives, they say, and I say, unless the hand's quicker than the eye, so I come full circle within this trick. And now when I show them that I've got the kings in my hand, so I've got the fives in my hand, and the kings are on the table, when they themselves have just said it's the opposite, it just absolutely blows them away. Um one story that I will always remember I was doing an army barracks Christmas party, you know, all these all these guys, yeah. All right, and I all right, Mr. Magician, come over here, show us some of your tricks. And I started with with double back, and at the end, when I revealed the cards, I just they were like, What the F are you bleeping words out? We can we can bleep, okay. And then and they said, and then I just looked at them and I said, I call that the don't fk with me trick. And they just burst out laughing, and you know, that was it. So it just gives you this element of it looks like you're a miracle worker, but it's actually really easy. But again, for me, the effect is one thing, but the reason I'm bringing it to this desert island, it's just the engagement that I get with people. I I just absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02: 43:08

Yeah, it's such a wonderful trick. And I think what's really interesting there as well is the idea of allowing the uh certainly if you're like a restaurant worker or a table worker, um, allowing the whole table to be involved without needing to do anything. They're they're immediately engaged in what's about to happen.

SPEAKER_03: 43:29

Yeah, and and it again, it's not this, oh, I need something flashy to open a table with. It's like, no, you don't. You really don't want to because for what the so okay, if you're opening with something flashy, what does it say about you? What what what are they gonna get about you just from seeing you produce a flash and you're now holding a pack of cards? Oh god, it's a magician. They don't know anything about you, you're not interested in them. But if I come up to you and say, you know, what whatever, whenever people see magicians, they say it's a you know, you say it's a quickness of a hand, it sees the eye. Magicians are trying to distract you. I'm gonna show you that that isn't the case. And so they're interesting, you know, they're interested, and there's lots of bits of business about it as well. So it it showcases who you are as a person, rather than, oh, I've got to I've got to stick to this story because it fits for the effect. So yeah, I would love to show people this on the desert island. See, I'm bringing it back to the desert island there.

SPEAKER_02: 44:32

And if you haven't seen this trick, then please do. I mean, this is one of those tricks where it's better to have it performed on you, if I'm entirely honest. Um, but if you don't have that affordability, go check out a video of it because it will absolutely blow your mind. It's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03: 44:50

Unless, unless you already know what the ending is.

SPEAKER_02: 44:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:56

It's kind of lessened it a bit. So ignore what we've just said. Forget what we just said, come back to this in a couple of years, make a note in your diary. In two years, watch a video of double back, or just buy it.

SPEAKER_02: 45:10

Or just buy it. It will still fall the pants off of you, regardless of it. Absolutely. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_01: 45:19

Hey guys, Harry here from Alakazam Magic. I hope you're enjoying the podcast. I'm just here to interrupt and tell you a little bit about the Alakazam Magic Convention. It has taken us 35 years to get to this date. However, May the 9th, 2026, will be the very first Alakazam Magic Convention. Now, I know you guys are super excited, maybe just as excited as we are. First of all, the venue is a 37-minute direct train from central London. The venue is then literally a 10-minute walk from the train station. There's hotels within a stone's road, there's restaurants nearby, and there's incredible food and drink on site. That's all without even getting into the magic side of things. We are gonna have four incredible lecturers performing throughout the day, including one person who's gonna be flying over to the very first UK lecture. We are buzzing to announce who those four are. Not only that, there will be dealers on site and a place for you guys to jam and session and meet new friends. Whenever the lecture's gonna be held, this is my personal favorite bit about the Alakazam Convention. They're gonna be happening in one of the Cinnamon screens. That means fully tiered seating, comfy seats, a drink holder, and there will be a close-up camera on the jumbo cinema screen that will be giving you close-ups of all the little nuances that you're gonna need to see when the lecturers are performing. There will, of course, be a full gummer show to end the evening off. You guys are not gonna want to miss it. The great thing is as well, on the Sunday, the day after Alakazam Magic Shop, which is a two-minute drive, will be open. So if you're heading down to the convention, why not stay overnight and come and visit our magic shop? Remember, May the 9th, 2026, tickets on sale now at Alekazam.co.uk. See you guys soon.

SPEAKER_02: 47:10

It's an excellent trick. Right, let's go into number five then. What's in your fifth spot?

SPEAKER_03: 47:14

Well to number five. I'm getting paranoid about what you said earlier because I have a coin in ball of wool, which funnily enough is an object to impossible location.

SPEAKER_02: 47:27

We did have someone on the podcast a little while ago, I cannot remember who it was, but um, they professed that they absolutely love object to impossible location, and the vast majority of theirs uh was that plot, and they uh yeah, they were very unapologetic because it's such a brilliant plot.

SPEAKER_03: 47:44

Oh, yeah. I mean, for those that don't know um what the effect of the coin in a ball of wool is, is there's a coin and it ends up in a ball of wool. Uh that's it. But it's there's a lot more, it's it's a lot more involved. And again, it's one of those where there's lots of methods. Um for me, if you would like me to tell you, the version I do is uh for Dan Harlan's uh penguin. Yeah, um I it's just well, first of all, it's absolutely impossible. And one of the reasons is the the ball of wool is in a bag that's been on view the whole time. Uh, someone is holding the coin, the bag is given to someone else. We've got the ball of wool that's in the bag, and now someone's holding the ball of wool. The other end is given to the person who's holding the coin. You then take the coin and it vanishes by your favorite method. And now, without going anywhere near it, but completely hands off. The ball of wool is unraveled. It can take however many minutes, however long you want it to be. Inside there is a box with which is wrapped with rubber bands. Inside the box, there is a bag with a drawstring, and inside that drawstring bag is the signed coin. And I would love to not know anything about magic and see this effect. I it's just absolutely impossible. One of the reasons is that they that the coin is out, and so is the ball of wool, and you don't have to go anywhere near it. So as a piece of magic, it's just phenomenal. But again, for me, I go, well, why would I want what what's in it for me? Why I could find anything in anything. Why would I want to do coin a ball of wool? Um, and for me, it it it's a story, you know. It's if I it's just a coin. I mean, in England, you know, we've got 10pe coins. No one cares about a 10 pence coin. If I ah, but you could borrow a coin, it's it's it's not the fact that it's a coin in the ball of wool, it's the story behind it. And that story is what will live with people forever. So that's why I do this trip because I have a presentation where I talk about remembering this moment forever and creating a moment for them that they will want to tell people, and so that's that's why I do it, as well as you know, the lots of bits of business as as we go along. But if I say, you know, why why would I want to show an audience a trip? That's my overriding thing, yeah, and that's why I'm doing it because of the story that they can tell.

SPEAKER_02: 50:46

This is another one as well. I've seen it perform so many different ways. Um, and this is pure theatre, I think. That's what's amazing about this effect. I've been in a theatre when this has been performed, um, and the performer asked someone to take the string and then pass it through the audience and pass it back and back and back and back uh and so it unravels, and just that in itself, the idea of getting an entire theatre's worth of people involved in unraveling this ball. And that what I also love about it is there's no overt, look how fair this is. Of course, you don't have to say any of that. The fact that it's inside a bag, inside a ball of wool, there's nothing more impossible about that.

SPEAKER_03: 51:33

Yeah, and it is impossible, and I feel that you know magic is not just about showing things that are impossible. You know. Um, I'll I'll see if I can crowbar in something that Ryan Reynolds said on Hot Ones. I mean, Ryan Reynolds is just Ryan Reynolds, but he said something really interesting to do with filmmaking that relates to magic. And he said that you know sometimes you can have you can throw too much money at a film. And what he meant was there's all these special effects, and people think that if you just have a film with you know explosions and sci-fi and superheroes and stuff and throw money at it, it will be popular. But in actual fact, it's about character, it's about story, it's about relationships as well. And that's what people want. And that's why films like Transformers with all these big special effect budgets, they're not as popular as, you know, like Steven Spielberg films or something. You know, E.T. is not about an alien, it's about friendship, it's that sort of thing. So with magic, it's not just oh, let's just do a the most impossible thing. Because people, you know, they won't remember it really, they won't care, maybe. But if you can give them a basic object like a coin and make it truly memorable as to how they got it, that is is what matters. So yeah, when you say you know, you you don't need to prove anything, it's just a ball of wool. Um again, that that's just why I I loved I love doing this effect and a routine.

SPEAKER_02: 53:25

Yeah, it's such a wonderful trick. There is a close-up version that came out last year, but it wasn't a coin, it was a balled up note, but I cannot remember what that's called. So I uh I apologize for not knowing what it is. But the idea of you know, even using it as a prediction, so I think it was Darren. I think he he did like a Karan's medallion thing in one of his shows where he had someone name a name um and then there was a souvenir coin inside the ball of wool. So even using it as a way to say, you know, this is an impossibly fair place to have kept this thing, there's no way I could have tampered with it, and yet somehow it still says X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_03: 54:05

Yeah, but again, with the you know, this is absolutely impossible, I'm not gonna go near it. That's all magic-y stuff. You know, if you know it meant something, and if you can tell a story about maybe you know, coincidences or uh what is it, serendipity, is this person meant a lot to you? There was someone in my life, and it that person meant a lot to me, and I'm I felt this connection with you because it's exactly the same name, and so you know, we share this experience. So just something rather than now there's absolutely I never went near it. It it would be impossible if it was in there, you know. I know I say that with the destination box, and people go, but you you just uh find it in the box, you know. There there is, you know, there's always exceptions to the rule, but you know, this box means a lot to me. And I always keep, you know, I keep the special things inside the box or whatever. But if you can find a reason that the audience would care about what you're doing, and for me that's the important thing, why should anyone care what I'm doing? And when you ask yourself that, that's when you come up with with presentations uh and even effects that you want to do, but with presentations that make people care about them, and that's what I get with with a coin and ball of wool.

SPEAKER_02: 55:26

Yeah, and I think even with destination box, though, I think people care about the props. So when you place that box on the table at the beginning, people will instantly care about what that box is and then put a story to that box. This was something that was handed down to me by X, Y, and Z, or I went to a charity shop and I had 50p, and this was the only thing that was 50p. So I bought it and you wouldn't believe what I discovered. There's so many different ways that you can go dependent on what the prop is, and because one's a box and one's a board of wall, there's completely different narratives that you can spin on each one.

SPEAKER_03: 56:01

Yeah, because as you say, it's it's the narrative, it's the story that I'm telling, the reason I'm doing it. I could I could do both of these in the same show. But if you're just taking something and finding it in an impossible location, you're just repeating the same trick. But I'm I'm giving people a different experience. Uh and I would say as well, just something uh uh when you said about opening with a destination box and people caring about it. I I say in my lecture that my first priority isn't to do any magic, and my first priority isn't to entertain people, those are not my first priority. You're gonna ask me what my first priority is. What what is your uh first priority, John? Good question. I said my first priority is to make people care. Because if they don't care, it doesn't matter what you do, you know? So that's always my thing. Why would anybody care about the trick that I'm doing?

SPEAKER_02: 56:57

Yeah, and to bring it back to films, that's what they always say uh about the characters in a film. They spend an awful long time on the character arc to make you care about them because if you don't care about the character, then what's the point in the the whole film?

SPEAKER_03: 57:10

Yeah, you know, you you can only have you can you can only destroy the world in so many big ways, or you know, these I say, you know, like I go back to the Transformers, it's just a load of visual eye candy. But where's the story? Do you care about any of them? Not really. But when that little E.T. died, anyway, carry on.

SPEAKER_02: 57:34

E.T. was one of my favorite films, so I'm not laughing at E.T. dying. Um, I loved E.T. growing up. So we're going uh towards the tail end, so we're on number six. So what's in your sixth spot?

SPEAKER_03: 57:44

Number six spot is Russian roulette. For me, uh well, Russian roulette, it's good. I'm sure most people would know, you have one dangerous object in amongst lots of safe objects, and the idea is to make is that you avoid the dangerous object. That's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_02: 58:08

Now, do you have a specific version that you perform?

SPEAKER_03: 58:12

Funnily enough, um, I do. Um I do one with uh with a nail. Um it's called the Pain Game. And I created this one because of a famous YouTube video of a lot of magicians getting it wrong, uh, or at least impaling their hand. And these are very knowledgeable magicians, these are really knowledgeable people. And for whatever reason, a mistake happened and they got injured. And I I looked at that, and this was actually the first time I created something to solve a problem. Everything before this was you know, what I wanted to do a trick, or oh, actually, here's here's a good premise. But this was me saying, Why are these people uh injuring themselves? And so I set out to try and solve that problem. Um and uh I pretty much did. So it's it's it's the safest and most natural looking uh version of Russian moulet. And I know uh people would say and it's fun to read, where people say it's all about the safety, it's a hundred percent about safety, and I go, No, it isn't it is not all about the safety. Because if you've got a dangerous object and it's made of it's obviously made of red sponge, it's gonna be absolutely safe because it's made of red sponge, but no one's gonna believe that it's a knife. So there is that balance of Between being absolutely safe, which we we all need, it's absolutely crucial, but it is also it needs to look like it's dangerous. And it can be dangerous. But you know, if you've got nails or if you've got spikes or knives or whatever, it needs it, you know, it needs to look like it is what it is. Uh and so with the pain game, I kept it really simple looking. So it's just something I could knock up in my garage, you know, some nail blocks of wood, rather than oh, it's it's beautifully turned and lacquered and rubber feet and everything like that, which turns it into a magic prop, which is you were alluded to earlier, you know, it it looks it looks like a magic prop. It's not of this world, like ET. So for me, you know, that that's that's the problem that I solved. I I absolutely solved it, and I remember it it fooled magicians when they first saw it. I think I showed um, yeah, I showed someone in a restaurant and it had no idea, absolutely no idea, and I loved it. And I also believe it was the first one, I don't know if it was the first one or the first commercial one where it's not the performer making the choices because I never liked that. I think audiences think to themselves, if the magician is making the choices of to where to slam their hand down, that person obviously knows which ones to slam down. He knows which are the safe ones. I don't know how, and they don't care, but they know that it's obvious. But with the pain game, I mix up the bags, the person mixes up the bags, and then the person makes the choices. And for me, that was a real game changer. So I love performing it. It it is danger, it's not just comedy, it's there is some humor in it, but the reason I like to perform it is it's it's it's this before again, suspense. We we I should have used this as the analogy. We know there's a nail, sharp or whatever. For me, the nail, we just don't know where it is. And so it's not a surprise, but it is there is suspense. And I I like that just to give a different feel to everything else, which is humor and comedy and uh and that sort of thing. So that's why I would love I love to perform this this version.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:36

Well, I think it's uh a really interesting one because I think it's maybe controversial because some people have a problem with Russian roulette plots.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:46

What's the problem with Russian roulette?

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:48

So I think a lot of people will say it is the danger aspect and that uh performers shouldn't put themselves in danger uh at all. However, my flip side to that would be I think that a little bit of danger, like you just said, really changes the mood and the the vibe and the uh the what's the word I'm looking for? It kind of just changes the feeling for the audience as well. And I think performers are scared of two things. Number one, not getting wow moments in in magic, if they're not getting a wow moment and it's not a oh my god sort of thing, I think they they get a bit funny, and sometimes this kind of trick doesn't get that response necessarily. And number two, they're worried about their own safety, which I also think that if you're in control of these things, and certainly your version, which is um one of uh that there is one in America with bottles as well, which is uh very safe as well, but it's about as safe as you're gonna get. Um, I could go to a restaurant and slip on the floor and crack my head on a bar. You know, you're never fully in control, as long as you're in as control as you can be. I I believe personally that it's worth the the risk.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:15

Yes, and to say you know, magicians shouldn't do dangerous tricks. Um, I believe Penn and Teller did something with bear traps, which is dangerous. Uh Copperfield went over the Niagara Falls in a barrel. Harry Houdini would be thrown into a river in a locked safe. Did Lance Belt do something with a yeah, he did with a roller coaster?

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:40

And not to mention the amount of escopologists that do crazy stunts on stage all over the world.

SPEAKER_03: 1:04:46

Yeah, and you could say, well, you know, they're they're all magicians, so they're not escapologists, but they're magicians doing dangerous things. But again, it's if you you got that, well, why would he do that, or why would she do that? You know, why would the why would the performer do that? And again, this is something which I I hope goes through all my choices for this desert island is why am I doing it? And I think with Russian roulette, way too many people just want to do it and go, Oh, it's not that one. Uh, I'm getting a feeling it's not that one, it's not that one. Look, I'm safe. And for that reason, you go, Well, what what are you trying to show? You know, why are you doing it? It comes back to this why question, the most important question in magic. Why? Why would you want to risk yourself? So for me, and I I did this on Penantella, um, a slightly different version, but I still did this. Is I talk about something, as I said before, people relate to. Every day of your life, you rely on other people for your safety. Uh, whether you're you know, you're flying off, well, you're in the hands of the pilot. You've got no control over your safety. It's down to the pilot. You're eating in a restaurant, well, let's hope he cooks the chicken properly. You know, you're walking along the street, you have to rely on people not running into you. Everything, you know, hundreds of times a day, you're relying on other people. So I'm gonna rely on someone else for my safety. So that is the why for Russian roulette, which takes it away from let me just show you something. I'm gonna try and keep myself safe, and I'm gonna try and avoid this. Audiences really don't care, and that's when it's you could do anything magical. You know, you could do anything, you know, you can get that wow moment, but this is something that the audience do feel for you, and and they, you know, I'm just I would like to think they want you to succeed, but it it's a reason for doing it, and that's that's just another reason why I love doing it, and it's also I said uh away from the whole humor comedy fun element.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:58

And is this something that you would do a little way into your performance? Because earlier on we were talking about the making the audience care, and I feel like maybe at the beginning of your performance, maybe they wouldn't care necessarily if you got spiked as much as if they got to know you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:15

Yes, I would not open with this. Um, but maybe uh it's a middling trick, middling to second half. Um, but but again, it it depends on is it part of uh a narrative for the whole show, you know. Um I I think uh with Russian Moulette, it it can be a great metaphor as opposed to just a trick. Because it's a one in four, one in five, one in six chance. So, you know, it it's it's not that magic, it's not a piece, it's not that wow magic, but there is a there is a sense of magical to it, and I say it's a metaphor. And if you can find a reason to do it, people will care about you, you know. So yeah, I I would I would put it in the middle or just after the middle.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:10

Amazing. Well, let's find out what's in the tail end of your list with number seven. What's in your seventh spot?

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:17

Tail end. All right, so for number seven is card stab. And there's different versions. Um the one I do, I um hand a deck of cards to someone, they shuffle it, cards chosen, put back, gets put into an envelope. Uh, I put a knife through the envelope, I ask for the name of the card, and their card is impaled on the knife. And that is that is the card stab.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:52

See, I love this premise. It was only since seeing um a version called Don's Card Stab. That version of is very, very similar. It's wrapped in a napkin, knife goes through the cards, one card comes out. I think in terms of like close-up theatre, if that makes sense, this has sort of everything. There's that danger element almost, there's that suspense, there's the wow moment at the very end, there's the weird moment. And I think looking back at your list so far, every one of your tricks has that element. And I know you mentioned what is it, what is in it for the audience. I think that's very evidence, evident with what you've put together here, because each trick has something really unique, and there's always some sort of twist or some strange element to make the audience really lean in and look at what you're doing and pay attention.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:48

Yeah, yeah. That's what I try and do rather than you know, there are so many tricks out there, um, let alone to do it in the real world, let alone picking eight to take to a desert island. But in the way that I chose this for a couple of reasons. Um, one of them is is the way that I do it, and I'm I'm not gonna allude to too much, but it is absolutely impossible. If you said to me you have one, you have a chance to do one trick, doesn't matter how long it is, it's not like a 60-second elevator pitch. If you could do one trick to impress someone, I would do my version of of Card Stab because we I go through how impossible it is. And again, the audience, I get them to agree that everything so far has been impossible. And when the when that moment of that revelation when I tear off the envelope and the card is on the knife, it is literally jaw-dropping. I I have on video these people. It's great. I do it on stage as well as close up. If I have a top table, I will do card stamp for them. But I've also I've also done it on stage in theaters with you know a camera on me. But the other reason I wanted to bring this to the desert island is there is so much fun involved. I mean, anytime you have a, you know, you're doing a card trick. Uh again, I don't just do card tricks because they're card tricks. I I love doing things, even from having a card selected. I'm engaging with the audience uh uh on on with that, having the card signed, there's bits of business with that. Uh, the envelope, everything. And so there's all this fun. And then when we get to the serious end and I'm revealing it, it just goes serious. And I think also that when you've got a trick that is a lot of fun, but then there's a really powerful ending, it elevates the the powerful magic because it's been fun, and then you go serious, and I think the audiences realize, oh, well, hang on, something something, something amazing, you know, something important's gonna happen. And that revelation of a card on the knife, it's it there's nothing like it that I do, really. It's just phenomenal, it's just it's just too impossible in a way. So, you know, that's what I'm showing with with this trick, is there's a reason for me to do this trick that makes it impossible, and the audience knows it's impossible, and it's unlike any other card trick they would have seen. So that's why I'm taking it to this island.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:42

Well, I think that's a great entry in at number seven. And before we move on, at the very beginning, we mentioned honorable mentions. So before we go into number eight, do you want to do your honorable mentions before we find out your last selection?

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:59

Possibly the greatest trick, button card uh card on card staff, the greatest trick ever, ambitious card. I I know some people have mentioned it, and when they do a card trick, some people like it, some people don't like it. Uh, I just think it's absolutely phenomenal uh to do because if you can just jazz with it, you know, it's not a set thing. Um, I love Bill Switch as well, extreme burn. Absolutely love it. But again, I don't I don't change ones into hundreds or fives into fifties or anything like that. So there's a reason for me to do that. Uh um Cuban bottle, Henry Harris. I got that. It is absolutely brilliant, not just from a method point of view, which I said as magicians, as hopefully most of us are, it's just genius. But again, the effect on the audience is you have a Rubik's Cube. And I know people go, oh, not more Rubik's Cube magic, but you have a Rubik's Cube, you have an empty jar, they go into a bag, there's a Rubik's Cube in a jar, and you just crush the bag to show there's nothing else. It is absolutely mind-blowing for people. But again, I have a reason for doing it, but I just love the effect. That's one of the best things I I'd actually bought in years uh to do for people. Uh, and the one other thing I wanted to give an honorable mention to was ring on rope. I mean, I do ring on string, but but ring on rope, I wanted to give an honorable mention because uh years ago when I start well when I started in restaurants, um, I was um Martin McMillan uh told me about uh a magician he thought I might like and recommended his video. And uh it's a guy called David Williamson. And he did so much stuff on that video, and Ring On wrote was one of them, and I've done it ever since. And I am unabashamly a Williamson fan beyond belief. He he absolutely changed my entire life for real. So that routine, there are others on it, but that routine in particular, um, I was I was doing three days after I got the video, and I've been doing it ever since. So absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:25

Well, those are all heavy hitters, but they didn't quite make your list, which means not quite heavy and hitty enough. Well, we do have one more to uh slot into your list. So let's find out what you did put into your list in position number eight.

SPEAKER_03: 1:15:43

So in position number eight, same it to the end. Um I have something that is Marmite. Because it's uh any card at any number. And for those who don't know what any card at any number is, uh any card appears at any number. Or a little bit more. Somebody names a card, somebody names a number, and when uh a deck of cards is dealt through, the named card is at the named number. I was actually looking back at previous episodes to see if anybody like Mark Paul would uh would include this or whatever, and I think um one person did it. Um I can't remember, Bo, I think um he included it, but not that many people have included uh any card, any number, which surprise it was a surprise. Uh, but I I include I include my version.

SPEAKER_02: 1:16:49

So when you say your version, uh what makes your version different to others?

SPEAKER_03: 1:16:57

Oh, there's a question, isn't it? I'm gonna be horrible and not give away everything because I well, I did this at the Magic Castle uh about three years ago, and I had various people coming back like three a times, four times, I think someone came back five times as well, and word got round that they should see me doing any card, any number, and I felt really bad because there was one magician who I know, and they made a trip to LA to see my show in the parlor, and it was the last show on the last day, and they didn't tell me they were coming, and we were completely full, and there was no way they could see it, and I felt so bad. They would they were told to come and see it, and and they couldn't, so um it's it was just a real shame. But again, I I'll I'll tell you about it. It's it's for stage, it's not sort of oh gum, show us a trick, it's in it attaining and it's a performance piece, and again, a lot of times with with any card, any number, or card any number, you know, the magician goes, name a card, all right, name a number, count down through those cards, the cards at the number. All right, so what? Who cares, really, you know? Um, and so it's it's not even a very good card trick. This is why it's my mind. It really is an average card trick compared to like doing card stab or a double bag or any other card trick, which is impossible. But again, like like um sorry, like uh Russian Muller, it's a great metaphor. You know, a one in a card appears a number, and you get people saying, wouldn't it be impossible if your card would no, it wouldn't be impossible. In fact, it's nearer to absolutely will happen than it is to being impossible. You know, there's a one in 52 chance that the card is at the number, it's not one in 2704, like some people do, or say it really is just one in 52. So it really bugs me when people go, it would be impossible if that card would be at the number, correct? No. So it's an okay card trick, but my version is eight minutes long, pretty much. Which, like, oh my god, an eight minute card trick. And I so my thing is it's not the fact that the card is at the number, it's the importance of that card being at that number. So why should anybody care that the Card isn't a number, and most oftentimes it's well, if it's not, then the card trip won't succeed. That's all. So for my uh presentation, I talk about how the Beatles were formed and how Gisel Bunchen became the world's greatest supermodel, and how I met my wife. That's the premise. Because if you think about it, one person chooses a card, one person chooses a number, and those two decisions combine to create something hopefully memorable. And that's what I think card, any card to any number should be, you know. Uh and that's what that's the reason that people care about what I do. The other thing is magicians, in a way, rightly always trying to find the holy grail of card tricks. And uh, I know Mark Paul um created the list of for the burglars effect, and my version fulfills everything in the burglars effect, plus something extra, um, which makes it for me so special while I love doing it. But as I said before, it it's not just about the effect, it's it's what it's what I'm able to say with it. And I should also say I a couple of things at the Magic Castle. I did I did uh I did one show, and oh I'll start with the last one. My last show, someone names a card, and then I asked someone to name a number, and they went three. I was like, that was it was such a huge disappointment because there's no no theatrics, no nothing. And that was my last version, and I couldn't build it up. But then during that week, I I always remember this. Someone named the uh Queen of Hearts, okay, and then I said to the person, name any number between one and 52, and he went 51. And I could hear the magicians in the audio, in the audience sort of mumbling about 51. I said, if you want 51, then we'll have 51. And he said, Yep, 51. Now, if you asked a magician, what would you do in that situation? You would probably get, well, I'd count back from 52 to 51. I go, nope, I counted from one to 51. Which sounds horrendous, but honestly, it's not. I would much prefer a larger number than a smaller number. And the other thing I would say with this is when you get any card, any number, and people go three or fifty-one, uh, you'll get a magician saying, you know, make make it a bit more difficult. Don't don't pick three, make it challenging or fifty-one. Well, that's going to take too long. So maybe make it smaller than them. Well, don't tell them that it could be any number. If they say three, if it if they say one, it should be the first position. If they say 51, it should be 51. I've I I've seen many proponents ask someone to change their number because it's either too big or too small. And I just no, no, you you're trying to create a perfect trick, you know, then it should be any number. So for mine, they can have any card and they can have any number, and it's actually the fun, it was the finale to my show. That's how strong it is. So that is why um it is being taken to the desert island with me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:56

I d I I wonder if it's just because magicians analyze things or over-analyse most of the time, and we think that we have to fill every available gap and moment and peace of silence, but we don't realize that there's an anticipation that builds up. Pretty much like what you mentioned with Pain Game, you know, you're you're building up this anticipation for this thing that's going to happen at the end. And I think that's what we we think that the audience aren't enjoying that because we don't enjoy that ourselves. But if they know that there is a finish line that we're heading towards, and they know that there's that anticipation, it doesn't matter if it's 51 cards or 52 cards.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:42

It's it's the importance of that card being at that number. If you just said you name a card, name a number, you 47 and the three of diamonds, count down 47 cards. Well, that's a lot of effort just to find the three of diamonds at position 47. You know. But if if there was a real reason for it for whatever you want, you know, I I don't know, just tell a story about you know, you are kidnapped, and if someone and they said if you don't get that right, you're dead. Bad example, but it's an example, you know. Then people, or if you bet, I will bet you£1,000 that the card that you name will be that number. Maybe there's a little bit more, but if it's just the card at the number, there are so many better card tricks. That's the other thing. What you know, why are you wasting your time on that trick when there are so many more powerful magic tricks that you could show people? But if if there's a powerful reason for it to succeed, then that's the trick to do.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:54

Well, I think it's a great way to close out your list. Uh, it's the perfect way to close it out in fairness, uh, because just like every other one of the tricks, it just feels completely different. Your entire list, we went from silent treatment, destination box, no risk, double back, coin in ball of wool, pain game, card stab, and any card, any number. Each one of those just feels like uh a little mini piece of theatre. Each one's completely different.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:22

Yeah, yeah. And you know, you you got uh you said I would maybe get two. There were actually four uh for mine. But yeah, I say for me, you know, there's there's a lot of tricks I'd love to take with and I'd love to do, but maybe I I don't know, I don't want to do them just because I love I like the effect, you know. It's always for me, what is what is there for the audience? That's that's the overriding thing. So yeah, that's that's my list.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:51

Well, it's a great list, and we gave you eight choices for your list, but we're only gonna give you one choice for the last three items. So, John, I want you to imagine that you're on your island, you're gonna dig a big sandy hole, and you're gonna throw something inside from our industry, then we're gonna pat it down, and it's never gonna be seen again. So, what would you like to banish onto your island?

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:14

Yeah, it was difficult enough, just limiting it to eight trips. Now you want one thing that I don't like from that magic. Can I do one thing of multiple um honorary mentions?

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:27

Yeah, we'll do desert island banishments. There you go.

SPEAKER_03: 1:27:30

All right. So um, okay, there's there's one thing which I would banish, which is ripoffs. Uh, people who just take someone else's idea, someone else's product, and go, I'll make that and sell it. I'll give no credit to the person who created it, no nothing. It won't be as good a quality, but I'll be able to sell it cheaply. And those should be banished from the desert island, from every magic convention, anything to do with magic, if you're selling a rip-off of something, then you should be banished off you should, yeah, you should be banished from everywhere. But also, as an honorary mention, uh, and I've alluded to it with my choices, just pointless presentations. Just either giving a running commentary of what you're doing. So I'm I'm gonna take the cards out of the box, I'm gonna shuffle the cards, I'm gonna have you choose one, I'm gonna put it back, and oh look, there it is. You know, no one cares. So that's an honorary mention.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:43

Well, I think both of those are great. I think you're absolutely right. Rip-offs, it it just shouldn't really happen at all. Um, now I will caveat that by saying that occasionally in our industry there is that there are times where someone comes up with one idea and someone else comes up with it, and those two items are genuinely that's a genuine accident, and people didn't know about that. It's inevitably gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:12

I will tell you, I will tell you one of my favorite stories uh about that, if I may. Uh, even before Double Back, um I had an idea for a trip, and I phoned Danny Archer, who's a great magician over in the US, and I'd known him for a little bit. And I said, I've got this idea for a trick, and I just don't know what to do about it. And he said, Okay, well, tell me what the trick is. And I told him, I said, I've got this idea where I've got 10 cards, and each card has a phobia, the name of a phobia written on it, but it's written in the style of the phobia. So you've got agrophobia where it fills up the whole space, and you've got sinistrophobia, which is fear of left-handedness, but it's written on the left-hand side of the card. You know, so there's all these all these things. And someone chooses the card, and it's it's um legyrophobia, which is fear of loud noises, and they open up the little packet, and there's a prediction, they take out the prediction, and it just goes bang. That was this idea that I had, but it didn't know how to manufacture whatever. And he said, uh, pretty much, I don't believe what you've just told me. He has a friend who lives in Midwest of America, and he had an idea for a trick, and it was 10 cards with 10 pictures of phobias on them. And uh one was chosen, and it was a fear of snakes, and the person would re have the prediction, they'd open up the prediction, and it was the rattlesnake gimmick. And not just the fact that two people had come up with the same idea, but we had he had a call from his friend literally 45 minutes before my call. And it was just this incredible coincidence that it was the same trick, pretty much, and we called the same mutual friend within 45 minutes of each other. So I mean it can happen, but if it's a blatant rip-off and I've had my products ripped off, and you know, I've had some friends point things out to me, and I've even met someone at a lecturer in Germany who ripped off the silent treatment, and he never gave me any credit for it. It was his idea, he created it, and I was just I lost it with him. Maybe shouldn't have done, but yeah. So blatant ripoffs, get rid of them.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:53

Absolutely, blatant ripoffs are gone, they will never be seen again. And that leads us on to your book. So we've reduced you down to one book. What book would you like to take with you?

SPEAKER_03: 1:32:05

I'll do the honorable mention first, um, which is the books of wonder, because I haven't read them thoroughly, and if I'm stuck on a desert island, it would give me the opportunity to read through them. So there's the opportunity uh the honorable mention. But the book I would bring with is has been made into a book, and it's Michael Close's Workers series. It's just it was. I mean, I mentioned David Williamson, who is just God um and changed my life. Michael Close had a huge impact. So commercial. Uh, if you don't know the frog prints, just look up the frog prints. It's a brilliant trick. You did that? Uh I would do that in restaurants uh a lot. But then also it contains the big surprise. And the big surprise um was the precursor to the destination box. Uh, and so I owe Michael Close a lot for the destination box. But there are so many commercial routines. He talks about um methods and techniques and things like that. Uh, and it's just this wonderful, wonderful series that he put out. I also wanted to put it into because I could give a shout out to Michael Close. Um, it's something else that I could actually banish. But when I was in when I was at my first American Magic convention, no one knew who I was. I'd never been over to America, never attended a convention. He was there, and and I had got his uh, I think I got his series or I'd seen his lecture. And I was talking to him in uh in the corridor in this in the hotel. And he had no idea what I who I was or anything. And someone that he knew or knew him came up to him and said, Oh, Michael, can I just have a can I ask you? And he stopped that person and said, I'm just talking to this young man. Give me a few minutes and I'll come and talk to you. And it was, oh my god, you know, because so often we will, and we'll see this in Blackpool, people just come in, barge in, interrupt, and you know, he was this, you know, this this star of magic talking to an unknown, and he gave me the time of day, and I just always remember that. So he's a great person, and the workers series is just an incredible book.

SPEAKER_02: 1:34:42

Amazing. Well, I'll add that to my ever growing uh library of books to get hold of. But I think that's good. I actually thought that you were gonna say um Williamson's wonders. That's what I thought you were gonna go there.

SPEAKER_03: 1:34:57

Well, I'd I'd got the video. I'm one of those people that prefer I don't know. Do you prefer videos or books?

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:02

I used to prefer videos, but now I prefer books.

SPEAKER_03: 1:35:06

See, I'm more of a video person. So I'd I'd got Williamson's videos. So pretty much everything on there is is is in the book. Um, the reason I prefer videos as well is you can see some bits of business or there's timings and things which you don't get from a book, you know. So that's why I prefer the video. Um so yeah, I I you know Microcloses book.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35:33

Okay, well, people know that normally when there's a uh a collection of books, I reduce you down to just one from that collection. Uh so is there a particular volume that you would take over everything else? Is it the one with the frog prints in?

SPEAKER_03: 1:35:48

Yeah, I think that's I think number three is the is the biggest. I mean, they have been collated into a book. So I would take that book. But they were there were five separate, not they're not quite a pamphlet, but booklets, more than a booklet, you know, spiral bound. I think it's number three has the frog prints and the big surprise and some other stuff. So if you were gonna, you know, um force me at a knife point, I would take number three, or I would just show you the book and say, look, all five are in this one book. I fulfill the criteria. Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:36:28

Well, we'll give you that that entire collection then. You've got that big book of Michael Close's worker series, but you do have one more thing, and that's your non-magic item. So, what would you take in your final spot?

SPEAKER_03: 1:36:40

Again, I'll give an honorable mention uh because we're doing magic tricks, and which magic tricks will I take? And I would take with solo as an honorable mention, which is a music, it's the best music queuing system ever. I absolutely love it. So that is an honorable mention. If you don't know solo and you want to do music, I'm not being paid for this. It's just incredible. It really is. Uh so that's the honorable mention. But an item that isn't really magic related or anything, um, I would take with polymorph, they're be they're little tiny beads, and you drop them into not boiling, boiling water, but you know, pretty, pretty hot water, and they melt so it becomes like plasticine. Then you can mold it into any shape that you like, and when it cools down, it's now solid. So you've got like 3D printing. You know, you could bring a 3D printer, but this is great. And I would make I would make gimmicks with it and holders for things. I remember I did, I was, I was in a close-up show, and I think it was the frog prints. I was doing a version on my version of it with a bit of a kicker, and I had a giant giant, well, a big no one could see how big this is because it's not video, but I had a large plastic tooth and it was it wasn't stable, and I needed to have it stable and flat, and I just created this holder for it with this polymorph. And if if my table, if if I lose the bolt for something, I can create uh a nut for a bolt, I can create a nut with it if I need it for that. I can create holders for coins, gimmicks that don't exist, hooks for things. It's just as magicians would say, you're limited only by your imagination. Um so I would I would choose that because it is so versatile.

SPEAKER_02: 1:38:55

Yeah, it feels like one of those uh emergency things as well, where if you've got it on you and something breaks or something happens, it's a great way to very quickly fix it or or make it work.

SPEAKER_03: 1:39:07

Yeah, yeah. You know, if if there's a hot if it if something doesn't exist, you can make it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39:13

Absolutely. Well, I think it's a great way to close out your list. So let's look at it one more time. We had silent treatment, destination box, no risk, double back, coin in ball of wool, pain game, card stab, any card at any number, your banishment is ripoffs, your book is Michael Close's worker series, and your item is polymorph. I think that's a superb list.

SPEAKER_03: 1:39:36

Well remembered.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39:38

Let's all presume that we didn't write that down here.

SPEAKER_03: 1:39:41

We didn't write any of that down at all. It is really impressive.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39:44

Well, if people want to find out more about you, John, about your products, about your lectures, all of that good stuff, where can they go to?

SPEAKER_03: 1:39:52

Well, for my products, it is online magicshop.co.uk. And if Want to find out about me? Uh I have closeupmagician.com. There may be a new website by the time this comes out, I don't know. Um, but uh close-upmagician.com. But for the products online magicshop.co.uk. Uh there are some more products coming out as well. Uh, I know we have Blackpool coming up, don't we?

SPEAKER_02: 1:40:21

Yeah, so are you I won't one would presume that you have a stand at Blackpool?

SPEAKER_03: 1:40:27

I do have a stand at Blackpool. I'll be in the main hall. I'm pretty much always in the same place. Uh I think it's like three um three blocks down um from the main entrance for the stairs. So uh I'll I'll be there, I think. Um Jonathan Levitt is opposite me. Um so yeah, I will I will have a stand at Blackpool with a couple of new things.

SPEAKER_02: 1:40:53

Any teasers? Anything that you want to give us a little exclusive of?

SPEAKER_03: 1:40:57

See, there's there's a couple of things which well now, yeah. Yeah, there's a couple of things which are I won't say improvements but variations. But the big thing is there is a new Russian roulette. Again, I did this at the Magic Castle, I've I've performed it a lot, and it's just a completely different vibe from other Russian roulettes. I think with with with a Russian roulette, you've either got, as we talked about earlier, you've got danger, you've got knives, or you've got nails, and and and that's fine. That's one thing. Then there's the complete opposite, which is you're gonna squirt someone with some water, or you're just gonna put an egg, slap an egg on your head. And so that's complete polar opposites, you know, one it's completely inconsequential, and the other one it is huge consequences, and this falls in the middle, and it's also uh lends itself a lot to comedy, which most Russian roulettes don't do, especially when there is there is consequence. So this is uh this is what I'm gonna be doing, uh this is what I'm gonna be releasing in Blackpool, and I'm really looking forward to seeing this. Uh the magician's reactions to it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:42:24

Oh, well, I think I'll be over seeing that one. That one sounds brilliant. I cannot wait at all. Now, did you say you had three tricks? So that's just one of them.

SPEAKER_03: 1:42:32

Yeah, yeah. Uh so the others, I'm on a bit of a tight deadline, so I don't know whether they will be, but I'm hoping. Um, I'm hoping that there will, if I can do it in time, there will be uh uh a 2.0 version of perfect score.

SPEAKER_02: 1:42:50

Oh, that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_03: 1:42:53

Yeah, and a 2.0 version of something else. But again, I'm on a bit of a deadline, so I I don't want to say whether it will or won't happen. Um so yeah, but the um uh the the Russian roulette is uh is gonna be be the big one, and I think people will will really like the uh the new perfect school.

SPEAKER_02: 1:43:16

Well, I'll as I told you at the beginning, I very much love the perfect school, so I'll be over to see what that is. And you know, I think uh anything that you put out is normally so well thought through. So I'm sure everyone will be straight over. Uh and if you do go over, let John know that you heard it from this podcast. Let him know what you thought of the podcast as well. Uh, but thank you so much, John, for your time.

SPEAKER_03: 1:43:39

Pleasure. It's been a it's been a lot of fun. And again, I'd like to thank you as well. You asked really incisive questions and you you did a when you talked about my the tricks I chose, it's like, can you just wait for me to say why they're good? You know, but you uh you absolutely get it. So it's been really fun.

SPEAKER_02: 1:44:00

Well, thank you so much again. And we may get you back on another version of this uh called SOS as well in the future and see whether your list stays the same or if something changes in it. So yeah, we'll hopefully. Spence more than surprise. Suspense more than surprise. Uh and of course, thank you all for listening. We'll be back again next week. Please do go and see John at the Blackpool Magic Convention. Do go check out those new things. Genuinely, I really will go check out the new perfect score and um his new version of Russian roulette because both of those sound phenomenal. And of course, we will see you all again next week. Don't forget, if you want to be a part of one of these, then send in your list to salsaalakazam.co.uk with your list, a little bio about you, um, and of course, you have your banishment and your item and your book as well. Uh, and then we can get a version of Stranding with a Stranger recorded for you. So I will see you again next week with another episode. But until then, have a great week. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:08

The news is out. The 1914 has found a new home. We are proud to announce that Alakazam Magic are now the proud custodians of the 1914. What does this mean for you? Simply put, everything you love stays exactly where it belongs: the aesthetic, the quality, the philosophy. The website remains unchanged. Your instructional content is safe. The classics that defined the 1914 will be restocked and made available once again. And with our industry-leading infrastructure and customer service behind the scenes, the future is stronger than ever. But this isn't just about preservation. Work has already begun on a series of new 1914 releases. Projects that have been quietly evolving for years and are finally ready to see the light of day. This is the next chapter. Built on respect for the past, driven by belief in the future. Thank you for your continued support. Thank you for coming along with us on this journey. We are the new 1914.