Oscar Leonard

A cruise ship theatre looks glamorous from the outside but the work is brutally practical: your show has to reset fast, pack down smaller than you want and still hit like a full-scale stage production. We sit down with Oscar Leonard, resident magician on Virgin Voyages for the past three years and newly named an Associate Member of the Inner Magic Circle with Silver Star, to unpack what that reality teaches you about building commercial magic and mentalism that actually lands.
 
 Oscar shares how he got the job, what “guaranteed performance spots” every day does to your material, and why recording shows and chasing the right feedback beats guessing. We talk about the problem mentalists obsess over: making mind reading visual. His solutions include a story-driven Fourth Dimensional Telepathy, a dartboard routine that creates instant intrigue, Liquid Forks for fast visual impact, and a standout ESP experiment staged with lab coats and clipboards to make small props feel huge.
 
 Then we go deeper on craft and ethics: Q and A as a closer, how coincidences become fuel for astonishment and why he’d bury most of a stage camera on his desert island. Cameras can help visibility but overuse can turn live theatre into a movie and we dig into where that line sits for modern stage magic.
 
 If you care about cruise ship entertainment, stage mentalism, visual reveals and building a portable show that plays big, this one is packed with workable ideas. Subscribe for more, share the episode with a performer friend and leave a review with the one routine you’d take on your own desert island.

Oscar Leonard’s Desert Island Tricks

Welcome Package. Multiple Selection Routine / Mentalism Reveals 

1. Fourth Dimensional Telepathy 
2. The Dart Lottery 
3. Liquid Forks 
4. ESP Cards / 4 Lab Coats / 4 Clip Boards
5. Location, Location, Location 
6. Three Billet Routine 
7. Book Test 
8. Q&A 

Banishment. Using a camera for the majority of a stage performance

Book. The Jinx Bound Collection 

Item. Debra Dale Blank Index Card 

Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk

Transcript

Why Trusted Feedback Matters

SPEAKER_03 0:00

And on on that note as well, while I'm talking about it, um, obviously being fortunate enough to meet people through the ship, and I recognise that I'm in quite a privileged position by being able to meet those people uh on the ships, Tom Crosby, Mark Paul, Mark Spellman, and Julian Loosa as well. I mentioned earlier that uh somebody told me in my show that two bits were quite close to each other and you might want to take one out. That was Tom Crosby. And finding people for feedback who you can trust their feedback and you respect them as performers and you love their work, I think is really important. And it's probably the one thing that's benefited me the most as a performer who is sort of still trying to figure this career out. Uh I'm 25 and I'm moving towards these guest artist spots now. I wouldn't be able to think have a have a any degree of clarity on what makes a good show if I hadn't had those conversations with people. Probably the best thing for me is being able to have those people to run ideas by and have honest feedback from the bottom of the city.

Meet A Virgin Voyages Magician

SPEAKER_01 1:26

We've got a guest that was actually recommended by Harry, and that's because one thing that we really want to do on this podcast is to give a diverse array of ideas and thoughts and situations. So we want to try and find maybe different niches or areas that people want to go into and find out what those people are doing. And today's guest is going to be a really interesting one because for the past three years he has been the resident magician with Virgin Voyages, and a lot of what he does now is developing shows for cruise ships. I know that this is going to be very interesting because he's also had the opportunity to learn from some really incredible creators, which I'm not going to name. I'm going to let Oscar do that on this episode. As of this morning as well, he was just told that he is now an associate member of the Inner Magic Circle with Silverstar. So congratulations to him. I always think about people that do cruise ships. I think it must be such an interesting world. They have these incredible theatres on this cruise ship where, you know, everyone wants to be entertained. They want to go to these shows, but also there's so many interesting issues there. You have to pack everything down so it fits into a small case that you can get on and off quickly. There's so many different things that you have to think about that maybe you wouldn't think about in any other industry. So I'm really interested to find out what a cruise ship magician who is dedicating the majority of their career to this, what they would take in their list. I know this is going to be great. Today's guest is the wonderful Oscar Leonard. Hello, Oscar.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

How are we doing? Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Glad to have you here. Yeah, so you're mainly now, uh, for the past three years you've been doing cruise ships, but you told me before we started recording that next year you're developing something else. So can you tell us a bit about what you do on cruise ships, how you got into it, before we get onto your list, and then where you're going with it now?

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Yeah,

Learning Fast On Seven-Month Contracts

SPEAKER_03 3:36

absolutely. So um I'll save the name drops as well for later. Uh for context, I've I've been doing magic since I was I was little, like a lot of us. Um, and then I got older and carried on doing magic. I didn't drop the magic bug. Um and I trained as an actor at drama school uh up in Liverpool, Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts, and then graduated in 2022, and then I signed with an agent who was representing me for acting. And then in 2023, this audition came through for Virgin Voyages, and they were looking for somebody who was a magician uh and a host who could fulfill this role. Uh, that was part of a team of sort of performers on board uh for their longer-term contracts. And my agent knew I did magic, but didn't quite know the extent because it was I was trying to cut my teeth as an actor who'd just graduated at that point, um, not to any particular great success with the acting. Um, but uh went to the audition. It was a very sort of simple audition. They only sort of required me to do some some close-up stuff. Um, and then four months of silence, and then I was behind the bar in my local pub working, and then they called me and I handed my resignation in at the pub that very lunchtime and said, See you later, I'm going away for seven months. So I went on board Virgin Voyages, first time ever on a cruise ship, didn't cruise as a family. Went on, flew to flew to Orlando for some rehearsals and then joined the ship in Miami. And I remember walking up to the ship in Miami thinking, oh gosh, what have I done? But it ended up being uh the best decision I've made in my life and career so far. Uh so the role I I did was called The Charmer, uh, which was uh not a title that I chose myself, which is worth very important to mention. Um, but uh it was a magician who would do close-up magic and the parlor show and would also host some of the events on board. And it was great, and it really provided the opportunity for me to get the reps in uh of just drilling routines and and you know, it's it's a very unique situation to be in where you have guaranteed shows of guaranteed performance spots every single day for seven months at a time. Um, so I got very quick at learning what worked, what didn't work, um, what people liked, what people didn't like, the differences in demographics, age demographics, uh American uh compared to over here in the UK, uh, and just got very comfortable through the hosting work, just being on a microphone, which I think was really beneficial, uh, being comfortable, being able to engage a crowd of people without doing magic. Um, I would do some close-up sets, which were uh sometimes they were roaming, sometimes they were walk around, uh, and then sometimes they were sort of sit-down or controlled, sort of a group of 20 people, maybe around, fringe between sort of close-up and parlor, I suppose. And then at the start on that first contract, I also did a parlor show for about 40 people, which was really fun because parlor magic's great, and I love it, and it's not often you get to perform for an audience of that size in what is still like a controlled theatrical environment, uh, which was great. And then over the three years, sort of the role developed, and um I had the opportunity to develop relationships with the Shoreside entertainment team and sort of make suggestions, and me and a couple others who also um did this role on the other ships were able to uh suggest things that we thought would work well, and then I ended up on my last contract doing a stage show in the manor, which is one of the theatre venues on board, um, which was fantastic, a fantastic opportunity for me, but also a lot of fun uh for the audiences to be able to see this role, which is on the ship quite secretive and subtle entertainment uh on a on a bigger scale. But yeah, going forward, um, I'm going to be shifting into doing uh what's called well guest entertainment work, uh, which is when you go on for shorter contracts just with your show and you perform it in the bigger theatres and you you move from different ships. Uh a lot of performers work for the different cruise lines as well, um, multiple different ones, and that is what the end of the year to next year is going to look like, the rest of this year before then is going to be building my show on a scale that size.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Wow. So you really you kind of went in blind. You you just took the opportunity, went for it. So your learning curve from that first time that you said you looked up at the ship and you were like, Oh my god, what have I done? To where you are now, you've kind of had to learn on the job. You've had to learn the lingo, you've had to learn how things run. And how does that work with the magic side of things? So, did did you go on originally with material that now, retrospectively, you wouldn't really go on with? Or did you kind of just get lucky and and you hit on straight away?

SPEAKER_03 8:35

I think I there was a a lot of luck involved with with figuring it out. I went on with material. Um, there's only one or two routines that I went on that first contract three years ago that I think still do. One of them's in the list. Um, but I did change a lot once I realized uh what well, one, what worked and what didn't necessarily work, but also what I enjoyed. Uh, you realize very quickly when you're doing that many shows and that performing that many times, that if honestly, I mean, yeah, it's uh you're you're trying to create the best product for the audience, but you also have to we do this thing because we love it and the fulfillment you get out of performing routines. So I also realized quite quickly, oh you know what, this routine isn't necessarily the strongest in the show, and I don't really enjoy doing it, so I'm gonna take it out. Uh I feel like we always it's always the balance of trying to create a routine that's really good for the audience, but also you want to enjoy doing the routine yourself, because if you don't enjoy doing the routine, they're not gonna enjoy watching you do it. Um, so yeah, a lot of a lot of learning on the job, figuring out like a lot of recording the shows, re-watching it, learning those lessons. But yeah, also like the magic aside, the whole lifestyle of living on a cruise ship for seven months with a bunch of strangers who you'd never met before was incredibly daunting at first, but ended up being fantastic. I've made some really great friendships and relationships with uh with with colleagues, and this is great.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Wow, I bet it was so cool when you first did it. Now, in terms of the going forward, you mentioned that now you're doing these like guest performances where you're taking your show on. Does that mean that there are different considerations now? Because one would presume you said that you're going into the larger venues, which means your show has to pay play for a large audience, but it also means that you know you're not taking flight cases upon flight cases of material onto each ship. So, what are the things that you've had to adjust in terms of your material going forward to allow you to jump on and off of these ships with this massive show that plays for a large audience, but I'm guessing packs relatively

Packing Small While Playing Big

SPEAKER_01 10:45

small?

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Yeah, well, it's it's interesting you say that because that's the sort of things I'm having to consider right now because I haven't done uh it's not till October when I'm doing my first guest contract. Um, so these are all the sorts of things that I'm trying to figure out now while I'm developing new material for the show, and it's it is a restriction on what you consider for the show. I mean, luckily for me, uh I'm predominantly a mentalist, so I can pack relatively light. Uh I'm not trying to bring a zigzag uh thing on on the stage or anything, but um but yeah, it is a consideration. I in I've been thinking about it a lot. I ideally want to be able to pack my whole show or two shows uh into one suitcase, one uh big suitcase, and then have a little carry-on with all of my clothes for the full full contract in there. Um so a lot of my stuff I try to keep light. I mean, I don't struggle too much with it, I don't have a huge amount of props. I I don't carry a big table. Uh I I don't carry anything, anything that being most of it's done with you know business cards and paper uh and and pens, um a couple props and books and cards and stuff. But uh I think the the way I try to balance the packing it small but playing it big is all in the reveal and trying to think of think of interesting dynamic ways to try and reveal information, which I know is the the buzz topic of mentalism, isn't it? Is how do you make mentalism visual and interesting, which is something I've struggled with uh for a long time. Uh, but I've been trying to, you know, uh observe what works and what doesn't work with different mentalists and and how you can develop a big response to a reveal and how it can be visual uh and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Amazing. Well, I'm

Desert Island Rules And Setup

SPEAKER_01 12:30

really excited to hear this list. So if it's your first time listening, the idea is we're about to maroon Oscar on his very own desert island, which feels a bit weird considering he works on cruise ship. So let's say he went to a little island, cruise ship forgot him. They've left him behind. So he is now stranded on his cruise, uh, on his own desert island, uh, waving goodbye to that cruise ship. Uh on the island, he's allowed to take eight tricks, take one book, one non-magic item, and banish one item. And don't forget, because this is season three, he's just been given a welcome package, and in that welcome package is a deck of cards. So, Oscar, let's go to your

One Deck Routine With Mind Reading

SPEAKER_01 13:08

list. If you were to do one trick with your deck of cards, which trick would it be?

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Well, well, I'll tell you what, it's very lucky that when I got off the cruise ship before I missed it, I took my eight tricks, my book, and a deck of cards with me, isn't it? Um, with a deck of cards. Uh so I don't really do a whole lot with playing cards anymore, but if I was to do one trick with the deck of cards that was very kindly left in the welcome package, uh, it would probably be a sort of fusion of a multiple selection routine uh mixed with mind reading reveals in there. So I'd get multiple cards selected and I'd try to reveal them through a mentalism capacity rather than just finding the cards in the sort of traditional way if you were a if you're a card magician. Um and then I'd I'd probably still find the cards because I am still a magician at the end of the day. I still love uh doing card magic, uh, but I'd probably try and incorporate some mentalism of mine reading in there. I'd I'd occasionally, if I'd do a multiple selection routine like that, I'd find the first three cards and then mine read the fourth card, um, and then reveal that the if I've already found but and then go on to say, but I still know that you're expecting me to find the card. So how about we we jump forward 15 seconds in time, snap my fingers, and then make a joke out of not being able to time travel and actually waiting 15 seconds, and then the card the fourth card is already with the three that have already been found, so there's a little thing there. But that's probably what I do to try and get the most sort of mileage, have the most people feel seen and and feel the experience with one deck of cards.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Amazing. Well, there's the the big the the other big debate in mentalism cards or no cards. Uh, are you the mentalist that allows cards in your set? Are you the mentalist that doesn't? And there is some phenomenal, phenomenal mentalism uh for cards out there. Uh John Bannon, if you check out some of his books, are phenomenal. Ben Blau has got two brilliant books, um, True Fables and Asymptopes, uh, both full of phenomenal card mentalism. So they're a great card mental in pieces. So I wouldn't normally do this, Oscar, but I'm going to put you on the spot. If you had one mentalism routine with a deck of cards, would it just be to have a card selected and reveal it? Or is there a particular routine that you would do that's purely mentalism?

SPEAKER_03 15:30

I'd probably do something along the lines of names by Luca Volpe. Uh, which is, if you're not familiar with it, it is a you throw out some pieces of paper, four pieces of coloured paper, different colours into the audience. Uh four spectators, they come and join you on stage, assuming there's a stage on this desert island. Um, and then uh you get somebody to very fairly choose a card in that manner. Uh they shuffle the cards and and they choose a card, and then that card is revealed when they open up those pieces of paper. So to say the three of clubs, which I think is a visual response visual uh reveal because they they've got the paper. You've got a kind of um effect of its own in the sense of them standing in the right order to open it, so it says it in the right order, so it doesn't say three clubs of the um, and then you've also got the deception of the fact that that was a very freely selected card in that process. So I'd probably do something like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Great, yeah. So uh but like a card reveal, but you're making it play huge with that reveal, which is brilliant. So now that we've got your care package, let's get into your main routine, Oscar. So, what did you put in your first position?

Fourth Dimensional Telepathy As Story Engine

SPEAKER_03 16:43

So, first I put fourth dimensional telepathy, an absolute classic of mentalism um that goes back a long time. Adam and Eddie Clever, Cassidy, Barry Richardson have all had takes on it. Um, the version and handling I use is from Alexander Marsh, who is amazing. Um, I use some of his techniques in that routine and they are terrific. And I like it because it is uh the procedure of it is simple for the audience to follow. Uh I always am wary with mentalism that uh the procedure can be quite long, and if the if you lose the audience in the procedure, the impact of the final effect is going to be completely lost. So I like that because it's pretty much as simple as three people, they each write something, they go and seal with envelopes, reveal, reveal, reveal. And it's sort of easy to follow. Um, and but it's also customizable, uh, which I like. You can um do do words, you can do a drawing on the final one with the drawing drawing duplication. Um the way I do it uh on the ship is or on in my show, but also on the ship, is I would talk about how you I'll be quite transparent with the audience, and I say honestly, writing these these routines, you can sometimes hit writer's block. Um, and then I thought it'd be really interesting if every time I did the show we created a unique story as an audience. So I get three people up, and somebody thinks of the main character's name, someone thinks of the genre, it could be their favorite genre of movie or book, and then the third person thinks of a setting, a location. And I've just found that uh that fits nicely with me. It gives me the opportunity where there's the variety between the different pieces of information. I've got jokes and jokes built into like each one. Um and that works night works really nicely. You start off with the name, then you go to the genre, and you can sort of you can struggle with the name because there's so many names, and then really try whatever your your process of mind reading is. Um, and then you can struggle with the name, then you go into the genre, and sometimes you go, I've got you nailed, and you write it straight away. And that's like often a lot of mind reading, just guessing, sort of thing. Uh, and then go into the third one, which is just setting the location, which is always a laugh because sometimes it's fictional, sometimes they've made it up, sometimes it's a real place. Uh a funny, funny story that happened quite a while ago now, but doing this routine in a show, which I think this is the first name drop, uh, which I think Mark Paul and Tom Crosby and possibly Spellman. I think there was a show where I invited, they were all on the ship at the same time, it was great. And I invited them all to to this sort of invite-only show that I did on board. And the person who wrote the location uh wrote Guadalajara, the city of Mexico. And obviously, not revealing any methods, but that is not uh not an easy thing to mind read. Um, so uh we did we I did get it, uh I did figure it out eventually, uh, but it provided a lot of humor with the audience because we established quite quickly. I was like, this is a city in Mexico. They were going, yes. I went, not Mexico City, and they go, no, and then I'm going don't think I know any other cities in Mexico other than Mexico City. Um so that was a lot of fun. Um, and sometimes they write inappropriate things, uh, which can sometimes be tricky to navigate, but also can be very funny to navigate. Where I was obviously working in an environment where it was all adults, so that sort of humor, uh, you're afforded more flexibility to play around with those moments. Um and I did have a very interesting conversation with Mark Paul uh one time where he gave me some advice on what to do in those situations about um how you can really benefit the impact of the moment by letting the audience in on what's happening. Um you can uh show them your line of thinking of what it might be earlier than you traditionally would if you were to reveal what you've what you've mind-read. Um, and that changed a lot in terms of how you can get you can really squeeze much more fun out of uh out of those routines. So that's number one, fourth dimensional telepathy. It's uh it's customizable, it's adaptable, it's flexible. All it uses is pens or pencils, paper and envelopes. So that fits in a very small part of my hand luggage.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Very good choice. And I think something that you said there, which was really interesting, that I think a lot of performers overlook is that mentalism is arguably one of the most uh adaptable pieces of performance that we can do, and the fact that you can customize that routine, let's just go for this one routine, but I'm presuming the majority of your act, to different cruise ships, and maybe if you were more of a corporate magician to different companies. So I think it's really interesting that you've gone for that in your your first position, and you also mentioned Mark Paul. Mark Paul's got some brilliant work on the uh envelope test as well. Uh, I think the one that you're referring to, Alex McAlear, is on his billet masterclass, which was a version of Bob Cassidy's original from his book as well. So it's a phenomenal, phenomenal routine. What is the theme of choice? So when you talk to them, is there Like a preferred theme that you do, or do you just do like the name, the place, that that kind of thing?

SPEAKER_03 22:06

So with that one, uh, I've I've done, yeah, I've done we're gonna create a story together. Uh so we're gonna come up with the the name of the main character, the genre of the story, and then where the story's gonna be set. And then often there's there's fun involved with that if they think of their child's name, and you say, Oh, who is who is Eric? And they say, Oh, that's my my five-year-old, and then the genre is a horror, and then you go, Oh, it's not looking good for Eric, it's not looking good for Eric. And then the setting is Hawaii, and it's like, okay, so we've got so there's the fun there. And I do want to eventually um bring that routine full circle a little bit and have like a have like a sort of prediction finale of like a book or a book cover, which which the opening page is is Eric crawled through the the sand on a Hawaiian beach, and you know, and it's sort of like a confabulation in the form of a book. I've no idea how I do that. So if you're listening and you have a good idea for that, um drop me a message. But um, I would like to bring it full circle in in that way and have that story created, even though the prediction would obviously undermine the the effort of the mind reading, which is the other big uh big red herring of mind reading stuff. But yeah, I've tried I've used uh different versions. I I really like ending on a drawing so you can have the visual drawing duplication. Um I've also adapted it so it's just a two-envelope thing. Um, so it's a a word or a name and a drawing. Uh lots of different versions.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Amazing. Well, that's a great one in at number one. Let's go to number two

The Dart Lottery As A Big Opener

SPEAKER_01 23:45

then. So, which effect did you put in number two?

SPEAKER_03 23:48

Number two is called the Dart Lottery. And this is the best thing that I bought at Blackpool this year. I love it. So, obviously, this is audio only, so I can't show you, but I've got the box here because it is I bought it from JL Magic. Uh, it's called the Dart Lottery by Ton Onosaka and Kaifu Wang, and it is absolutely fantastic. And we were uh, I remember being in the hotel having breakfast uh with a couple a couple friends, and someone else was talking about this dartboard thing, and they were like, Oh, have you seen this dartboard thing? We were like, Oh no, we'll check it out. We went to the stand where they said uh it was and they'd sold out, and I was like, damn, you sounded really cool. And then we wander into the the main dealers' hall, and we're walking around, and we we see a dart board, and I think this is brilliant. I, as an aside, I loved playing dart. One thing about working on cruise ships, they had a dartboard, and I was down there in all my off time just playing darts, it kept me sane. So anything dart related, and the way I can incorporate that into my show, brilliant. And then I was with Tom Crosby, who's a very good friend of mine now. Um, and he was like that, and it was sort of like on the fence. I was looking at it and I was going, oh, do I, don't I? And then Tom, who's seen my show loads of times, and also probably more than anybody giving me the most feedback and help with the material of the show, uh, was like, that's so you you need to get that. So I did straight away under his uh his guidance. And basically it is a magnetic dartboard. They have a magnetic dart, they throw the dart at the board, and then on the back of the dartboard is a list of numbers that are on the front of the dartboard, and underneath each number is a dice symbol. So it's one through 16 on the back, then under each of those individual numbers is a dice symbol. Then on the side, you have the six die symbols, and they throw a dart on the board, they land on 12, you turn it around, and you can say, you landed on the number 12, underneath that it's dice symbol number three, whatever. If you landed on 13, it would have been dice symbol number two. If it landed on a different number, different die symbol, but you landed on the number three. You then go over and it's uh a classic of that is sort of uh the one you wanted them to pick. So it could all the others could say, like the light, the hug and kill reveal, but in that form. Uh so all of the others, apart from three, say, Oscar does the show naked or whatever it is. And then the one that uh they pick says Oscar does a car trick or something like that. So it's a very playful way to um incorporate some fun. You give an audience member a dart, everyone's having a great time. Um I used it in on the ship in one of the in the in the bigger show, uh, as the audience decides how I start the show, so uh they throw it and pick something. Um I used it in a recent Friends show, which was very weird, and it's about me being psychic after a night with a psychic at a music festival, and it's called Help I'm Psychic, and I'm trying to come to terms with it. Uh, and that was a part of the story of that. But it's it's completely self-working, it's really easy, and it's the best 50 quid I've ever spent in my life, I think.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

So I heard about this at Blackpool. This was one of the ones that a couple of people came up to me and said, You need to check this out, but same as you, it was sold out at the time. Um, is this one of the pieces that's gonna go into your new show then?

SPEAKER_03 27:18

I think it probably will in some way. Um, I'm still playing it because my style of performing that I love to do is very theatrical, very surreal. Like I've just finished a run of shows at Brighton Fringe, and it was I'd I'd say I'd almost describe it as a fusion between a mind reading show and a play. Um, it was I had like moments where I was inside the psychic tent explaining what happened and and all this. And I want to try and take some of that energy and that um theatricality into the cruise ship show. Obviously, I'll have to commercialise it a bit more. Um, so it's because it was quite a niche style of humour, I will say. Um, very surreal. But um, but I think having those stories and realizing that uh that people actually do find theatrical narratives like that really entertaining and a bit unusual if they're expecting to see what they in a in a normal person's mind is a nor ordinary magic show, uh, that can excite the audience a bit because I'll be like, oh, this is a bit different, but I quite like it. Or even if they don't like it, it's a bit different. So I think something like this, which I can it's really playful and really uh a really unusual tool to uh to do something that you could achieve a lot of other ways, um, I think it would definitely go in. And I think it's a nice visual. I was listening to the pre-show of I recorded the uh everyone coming in uh to my fringe show, and then I I listened back to the recording, and people about three different people went, Why is there a dartboard on the stage? And I was like, Oh, brilliant. So that that says it all that makes it worth, even if I didn't end up using it.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah, the the pre the pre-show is something that I think a lot of magicians don't think about. It's creating that mystique and that that mystery and getting people excited, you know, about seeing the show. So I think that's a great one, and I really like that we've just got a weird prop. Like we're we're already in there with uh a dartboard. So let's see where we go with number three. So what's in your third spot, Oscar?

Liquid Forks For Visual Impact

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Number three is liquid forks, and I just think they're fantastic, and I use them in close-up, I use them at close-up gigs, and they always get great reactions, as I'm sure a lot of people listening probably use liquid forks, they are super impactful, uh, they're visual. People love to see it. Venue staff, not so much. A few times I've had to say, don't worry, don't mind forks. Um, but uh, but people people love them. But then also I've just sort of ventured into, as I mentioned, just mentioned, the fringe show. I I used uh I did a fork bend routine in this fringe show, and it was a small show uh in terms of audience capacity, it was only about 30 people. Um but I did a a whole bit where after I got home from this music festival when I was trying to figure out my powers, I dug into a meal that my mum made and realized a fork bended without me realizing, and then the closer I looked, the more bent it became. And then I was being gaslit essentially by a piece of cutlery because I thought it was always like that, but it wasn't, and then I gradually controlled it and then render the fork completely and utterly useless in the process. Um, and it played really well, and it was a bit of a like, I'm gonna put it in and just see what happens because obviously it's not a big room, people will be able to see visually what happens. I just don't know if it will have the same effect as it does close up where it looks like you've just grabbed a fork. Um, but it got great reactions, and it ended up being a really fun part of the show, a part that I really liked. So now I know that they're even more versatile. I won't necessarily use it on a big stage, um, but for situations like that, I was like, well, okay, that's interesting to know that it also gets good reactions there, versatile, cool, different to other bits, visual.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Great, yeah, and this goes into what you were on about about visual mentalism, because there's not a lot of visual mentalism about, and this kind of falls in the visual mentalism realm. Um, now the main question that we have when it comes to fork bending is are you a fastbender or a slow bender?

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Yeah, fast and snappy. 100%. I was familiar with Morgan Stravler's fork bending, and that's what I first watched when I was a kid. I never did it as a kid, uh, but that's what I watched. I remember watching it going, wow, that's really cool how he just shakes it in front of him, and then suddenly the fork is completely destroyed. Um, so I guess it's just yeah, that. But for the context of the fringe show, I think it probably would have been quite nice to do it slow. Well, I suppose in the in that show, in that performance, the bend wasn't happening in a way where I noticed it happening, and neither did the audience, I hope. So I guess that is neither slow or fast because I it was a fork, and I just eat my food, I look back at it, and then it's bent. And then I'm wondering whether all of my cutlery was always like this. Of course it wasn't. I'm being gasted by my cutlery, and I look again and it's even worse. So I guess that it's fast in the sense of how the fork is like no one sees the fork bending, but I guess it's neither fast nor slow because I'm not noticing it's happening, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Yeah, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Every time I look back at the fork, it's it's even more bent, and I'm like, what the Yeah, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

It's almost like incidental magic. It just kind of happens. Yeah, that's great. Uh so let's go to number four then. What would you put in your fourth spot?

ESP Lab Coats And Clipboard Experiment

SPEAKER_03 32:56

So number four is a this is going down the visual line as well. Uh this is um a deco of ESP cards and four lab coats and four clipboards. And I know that sounds like three different things, but I promise this is all just one trick, one routine. Um so this is a routine that I did in in my show recently, which is uh quite simple in the mechanics of the routine and procedurally. I invite four people up on stage, I hand them each a clipboard with a piece of paper, uh, I make them put on a lab coat, and I talk about how this is again in the fringe show, where there's the theatrics of it. Um I talk about how I developed these psychic powers, and I don't know how, and it's weird, and I don't know, and people always ask me to prove it, and I don't know how. And then a package came in the post from Edinburgh University, the Paris Psychology Unit. And I now, I don't know who sent them, but it's the perfect way for me to prove what I can do. So four people come up, put on lab coats, take a clipboard, and a piece of paper and a pen, and then Stranger Things music starts playing. And then they all draw a drawing on the top of the clipboard to identify them with a specific clipboard. I was gonna go for initials. This is a routine that is um in Unreal by Bruce Bernstein. And he does it with initials, but I got into little drawings because then I ended up having a lot of fun with psychoanalysing their drawings and how terrible they were. Um, and then they shuffle up the clipboards and we put them down, then and deck of ESP cards is shuffled, and then they choose an ESP card each, and then they ice it in front of them. So it sort of looks like and the staging of the of the of the routine is me sat down at a lower level than the four on stage in their lab coats with their clipboards. So the image is very much like I'm the subject, and they're doing a telepathy experiment on me, as opposed to the traditional when the magician is on stage, he's at a higher level than the audience, which I liked. And then the music's still playing, it's very funny. I and I like it because it's got it's got different elements to it in terms of magic and and mentalism, because one, you are trying to identify whose clipboard is whose. So there's an element of sneak thief in there of whose drawing is whose, but then you're also getting them to try and send you the image on their card, the symbol, the ESP symbol, and you draw the symbol and you hand a clipboard sort of quite casually to the people. And then when you've done that, you say, if I gave you your correct clipboard, say yes. They all say yes. That's the first hit. Then turn your clipboard around, and if and we'll see if it matches the ESP card, they turn it around, they all match. I take them back. And then the last hit is something that I developed quite late in the process of doing the show, which was then as a kicker asking them to turn around, and on the back of each lab coat is the symbol that they had. So it's like a nice visual reveal of the lab coats all along, not just being an unnecessary prop, but actually harbouring the prediction of the circle, triangle, plus sign and star or whatever. So yeah, I really like that. And it got really good reactions, and the visual of it uh was fun, the music was fun, the theatrical energy of that routine. I really enjoyed.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

I love that. I think that that sounds like the perfect thing that we're talking about at the beginning when we mentioned about having to go onto a cruise ship and create a show that feels massive using small props. The idea that you've taken an ESP deck of cards, and the way to make that more visual for an audience in a larger setting is by having them redrawn on boards, clipboards. I think that's really clever. It almost sounds like a a stand-up chair test with like the reveal at the end because they're in a specific order and they've got the same lab coats for the boards and the pictures you've kind of worked out. I think it sounds really, really cool.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

Thank you. Yeah, I was really proud of that one, and I I really enjoyed it. And I love the the lab, it was so last minute with the lab coats. I would you know on Amazon you can get four lab coats for seven pounds next day delivery, and it's it's quite unbelievable how last minute it it was. But it was a fringe show, and I wanted to put it in. And a lot of the fringe show were last-minute ideas because you spend months trying to develop a show and you you just can't come up with anything creative or fun, and then a week before you come up with all these amazing ideas, and I just thought, you know what? Normally I'd say, Oh, it's too late, but this time I'm doing a fringe show, let's just try it and put it in. And it ended up being a really well-received routine. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

Even with the uh Stranger Things music, I imagine that that that gives such a cool ambience, you know, when they're stood there, then this Stranger Things music comes on. I bet it's so cool to see. Right, let's move on to number five then. What's in your fifth spot?

A Phased Card Routine That Escalates

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Number number five is a card trick. I thought I can't go on Desert Island tricks and not put in one card trick, uh, other than obviously the mentalism card trick we talked about by Luca Volpe. But this one's not a mentalism card trick. This is a uh card trick that I I don't really perform card stuff, but I I love practicing cards. Uh I always shuffle and practice card tricks because it's what I started as a kid, and I love it. And this is by Andrew Frost, it's called Location, Location, Location, and I think it's on his download called Stay Frosty, I think. Um, but it's brilliant, it's essentially you find a four of a kind, and then you talk about how it's not super fair, I suppose, because you found the cards, and then for the second phase, you get a spectator to choose a card, say they choose a queen, and then you cut to the other three queens, and then to finish, the spectators choose a card each, and then they are the four of a kind, which is the final kicker. Um, it's it's fun to do, it's really satisfying to perform. Um, Andrew Frost is an incredible, incredible card magician, and I can't do most of his stuff, and this is one I can do, so I will take it.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

So, what is it about this particular card trick that does it for you?

SPEAKER_03 39:21

I think it's the fa I love I love routines that have phases that just get slightly better and better each time, ending on a final phase, which is obviously the sort of structure of most impactful magic. Um, but it's relatively short, three phases, it's got that structure, the three-act structure almost. Uh, I've always really liked and been drawn to gambling demonstration type of routines, uh, displays of skill with the deck of cards rather than uh being have it possessing a sort of magical ability. Uh whereas this one you can present it quite on the nose of like, oh, I've developed this ability, I think, to be able to actually just like identify and locate cards in the deck. And spectators, I mean, I've performed this a few times just for friends or in in non-professional environments, but people always say the lines of like uh I wouldn't want to play cards with you, or you know, all the lines we've always heard. And this one is quite a nice response to that almost because you can say, Well, actually, it's funny you say that because I've been practicing the skill of trying to actually like count cards, identify cards. Spectators love the idea of these card sharks counting cards and being able to cut to a specific card and all this, and obviously that's not what you're doing in the routine, it's it's far uh more sort of manageable of a routine, but you can give it that presentational spin. And I always what I grew up watching Paul Wilson and and Jason England do these crazy things and never learn how to do them. But I've found a routine that has that kind of flavor, and that's what I like.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

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SPEAKER_01 42:25

Amazing. Well, that's our curveball so far, because it's the only non-mentalism piece. So let's go to number six and see if we have another curveball.

Quick Sponsor Break Announcement

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Number six is straight back to the mentalism.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

All right. This is the three billet routine by Christopher Carter. Uh, this is my go-to if I have to do a short one routine thing, like a like a cabaret spot or a uh a fill or anything. I mean, it's also had a feature in in my shows, but it is just the best. We're talking about packing light, and this routine, all you need is three pieces of card and three pens, and that is incredible for a routine that plays so big. I mean, yes, and a sketchpad to reveal, I suppose, as well, but you don't have to have that. Um, this routine to uh give it a brief synopsis you have uh three billets, the information can be anything on there. Again, it's customizable, like for dimensional telepathy. Uh, the way Christopher Cars does it is with the name of your first crush, and three people in the audience write down the first name of their first crush, they're folded up and they're put into your pocket. You then take one out and you read the name, Peter, for example. You ask each person if that's their first crush, and you do a lie detector test. They say no to everything you ask, and then you figure out who is thinking of Peter is their first crush, they take a seat, then you go into your pocket, you do it again, and then uh you reveal who's thinking of Jason. And then for the third one, because there's only one person left standing, you then mind read the name. And it is just simple to follow for the audience. It's impactful. It's again got that sort of three-act structure, but there's layers to it because you're lie

Three Billets That Fill Seven Minutes

SPEAKER_03 44:14

detectoring the first lie detectoring, I don't know if that's a word, you're lie detectoring the first uh two, and then you're mind reading the third one. But it is it's great, it gets great reactions. The first crush uh one is great because people find that so funny and it gets a little bit awkward in the room when you ask that question. But I've customized it to um I did a show at Christmas where I got people to write down their dream Christmas gift on there, um, which was and then did a sort of lie detector test with that, um, and then combined it with a sort of naughty and nice uh yes or no type of routine. But it was it's the best, it's in his book, um, which I just saw you flicking through. It's it's a great book in the spotlight, but it's also in his uh penguin lecture, I think, as well, which is where I first saw it. But all of his stuff is great. All of his stuff is so, so great, and I love it.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah, I was just double checking. I wasn't sure if it was in his book and in his Penguin Lecture or where I'd seen it. Um, because as soon as you mentioned it, it's uh I know I've spoken to Andy Smith at the shop about this particular routine. It's j there's just something so wonderfully routined about it. Uh that there are certain creators in mentalism that when you read the methods, there's something about the cleverness, you know, with how the routine is structured and how it functions and works. And Christopher Carts, one of those people. There's been so many times that I've watched one of his effects and I'm absolutely dumbfounded with how it works and the structure and how it goes together. And this for me is one of those routines. You you watch it and it's amazing, but then when you find out how it works, you're so far ahead. Um, everything's so well hidden. I think it's just a phenomenal routine.

SPEAKER_03 46:07

Yeah, I mean, I agree. I think it's and it's so nice to have one of those routines, which I've I've done it a lot of times now. So I I know the beats, I know the choreo, and I know what I could what presentational spins I can put on it. And it's so nice to have a routine like that that you can confidently fill seven minutes in a slot for a big crowd and it play really big, and it doesn't bring you the stress or the pressure, all you need is the three pieces of paper and the pens. And they a lot of people talk about lost luggage shows and building shows which you can fit in your hand luggage, which is definitely something I'm considering given what I'm doing towards the end of the year. But I also think having you should obviously be confident in all of the material you're performing on stage, especially if you're being paid to do it. But I think there's those few routines that you have which are just the ones that you feel extra confident, like they you love doing them, you you they they feel embodied, and that's one of them for me. And I will if this wasn't a random order of the list of tricks I bring on, I'd put that at number one because it is fantastic. And he's got other stuff in in his book, which I've done before. There's a routine called Crime Solver, which I didn't did in a show. It's not made the list as one of the eight, but it's another uh fantastic routine with a the prediction on a recorder, like a voice recorder. And again, if we're talking about visual reveals, uh that falls into that category because it's um well, it's not visual, I suppose, it's it's an audio reveal, but it it takes it off a sketchpad, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

Yeah, I hundred percent get what you mean. Uh well, I think that's another great choice. Now, uh, a very quick aside, would you do fourth dimensional telepathy and the three-billet routine in the same show?

SPEAKER_03 47:51

No. Um, I did I had two shows on board and I did them in different shows. Um, there was a time when I was uh a while ago when there was two routines that clashed a little bit. I can't even remember what they were now, but there were two mind reading routines like that, um which did clash. And then I sort of restructured that after after I had feedback from a couple of magicians and being like, I'd probably like pick one of the two uh because obviously you don't you want to avoid that repetition.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

Amazing. Well, I think that's another great choice. We got two more of your eight. Let's go to the tail end then. So what would you put in number seven?

Layered Book Test With Real Books

SPEAKER_03 48:33

Number seven would be a book test. Um I've been doing I I've done a lot of different book tests and I I love book tests. I think that it's really nice to do a classic routine, which which a lot of people do, but it has a lot of different methodology, a lot of different ways you can do it. Uh the way I've gone with is a sort of layered method version from Chuck Hickok's Mentalism Incorporated, which is a fantastic book, uh, which is a guide to performing mentalism for corporate audiences, but the material in there isn't exclusively for corporate, you can do it wherever. Um but that being said, his knowledge on the corporate environment is second class. Second class, first class? How do you I never understand that phrase? What I'm trying to say is Chuck Kick Ock is amazing at uh understanding the corporate environment. But his book test um uses lots of different methods, none that people wouldn't necessarily be familiar with. Um but he just combines different methods that and layers them so it's more deceptive. He also uses normal books in his routine as well, which is a really nice other layer of deception there. Um he can hand books out into the audience, they can keep hold of them for the show. So if they're skeptical, they can flip through and they won't find a thing. Even in the ones uh which aren't completely normal books, people won't find a thing, but these ones are books that they might even recognise from the local Waterstones or whatever. How many and and it's a routine where you can get, I think, oh yes, one, two, three, four, five. Uh in my ver in my take on it, I do slightly less than his, I I use slot one less book, I think, than his version, but I get six hits, six my uh pieces of information mind read, um, and then a piece of information that is saved for the finale of the show in that routine.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

So with this version, is this something where you would have to create your own book? Because you mentioned some of the books not being normal, and how accessible is that to people who are perhaps not particularly accustomed to making things themselves?

SPEAKER_03 50:43

Uh no, I didn't have to make anything myself. Um the the layers he the the different methods of book test that he uses are other methods published by other magicians, which are accessible at at magic shops, and some of them might not be available anymore, but are easy, easy enough to find, or at least a principal that is easy enough to find. Um so yeah, not talking about uh making anything myself, uh just using uh the uh UF um book test by LB Um and a couple others, um which are and the obviously the the best uh book test of all time, the mother of book tests is uh another one uh which is used and combining lots of different of those different methods like those two they they sort of cancel each other out, the methods essentially. Um and then using the uh UF book test, there's a very um nice feature of that specific book test which allows you to bring in just books off the shelf.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Amazing. Well, I think that's another great one. Now, just looking at your list as well, for people who are maybe a bit more judgmental when it comes to mentalism. Uh, they may think that a mentalism set m is boring or repetitive, but I'm looking at over your list now. You know, you had fourth dimensional telepathy, which is uh a three envelope test, you've got a dartboard, then you've got forks, and then you've got people with lab coats and clipboards, um, and then you've got a card trick, which is the only one that you've put in here so far, and then you've got a three-billet routine, which will just feel like pure mind reading, but you can theme differently and you can put in different reveals. Um, and now you've got books all over the stage. So, in terms of a set, you're using really diverse props and different ideas and presentations, and even in terms of your you know, your promo and the sh the pictures that are being taken, I can imagine there's some pretty cool shots that you could get from this list for promotion.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Yeah, I mean, the the way I well, it's also worth mentioning, I know a few of them are a little bit repetitive, but these people are stuck with me on a desert island, so they have no choice but watching. Uh but uh yeah, uh the originally

Designing Visual Reveals With Better Notes

SPEAKER_03 53:08

when thinking about the level of the reveals and and the visual nature of it, uh, it did come from wanting to get a better showreel. And like most, I mean getting showreel content is so so difficult. And to have good visual moments as a mentalist is hard. Uh, but also um Raddock Hoffman is one of the best thinkers on on visual reveals. He's got a book called The Art of Revealing, which is fantastic. He's just released a new project as well. If you're not familiar with his work, um check him out, he's an incredible performer. Um, and we've spoken a reasonable amount over the last couple years, and uh, he's opened my eyes a lot to thinking about uh mentalism in that visual way. Um, and reading his book as well was really beneficial. And on that note as well, while I'm talking about it, um, obviously being fortunate enough to meet people through the ship, and I recognise that I'm in quite a privileged position by being able to meet those people uh on the ships, Tom Crosby, Mark Paul, Mark Spellman, um, and Julian Lohsa as well. But I will say finding, I mentioned earlier that uh somebody told me in my show that two bits were quite close to each other and you might want to take one out. That was Tom Crosby. And finding people for feedback who you can trust their feedback and you respect them as performers and you love their work, I think is really important. And it's probably the one thing that's benefited me the most uh as a performer who is sort of still trying to figure this career out. Uh, I'm 25 and I'm moving towards these guest artist spots now. I wouldn't be able to think have a have a any degree of clarity on what makes a good show if I hadn't had those conversations with people. So if you if you can try and find people around you who can give you that feedback, but don't cast your net too wide with it. Don't have don't try and seek feedback from everybody. And I also think be careful with who you try and get feedback from. You want to try and get that feedback from people who you also admire and respect. Uh Tom Crosby's show is one of the best I've seen, and his performance style, he's so genuinely likable on stage, and his memory stunts are incredibly uh entertaining to watch. Um so naturally, up to well, obviously, it was fortunate that we developed a good friendship, but when he gives me feedback, I I really want to hear it because I like his work so much. And there's a couple people, uh, there's a Swiss mentalist called Luca Giggli, who's another person I talk to often. Um probably the best thing for me is being able to have those people to run ideas by and have honest feedback from.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Yeah, I 100% agree. I think having that tight-net group of people, but I think what's really interesting with your situation is the feedback that you're getting are from people in the field that you're in. And I also think that's really important. You know, people who have been where you want to be. If if you're someone that wants to go somewhere, the best people to find out is from the people that have been there and done it. You know, they're gonna give you a head start, they're gonna be in the perfect position to help you. So I think that's what's really great about your position now moving on in the in these cruise ships, and the fact that you said that you're only 25 and you've already achieved three years as a resident magician on a cruise ship, and you're now in a position where you're able to take your show onto ships. And I'm guessing a lot of these ships know your reputation at this point, and you're gonna be a fairly busy performer in in doing that.

SPEAKER_03 56:43

Fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

Fingers crossed, I'm sure. Well, we've got one more trick, so let's go into this then. So, what's in your final position?

Q And A That Invites Coincidence

SPEAKER_03 56:51

So, the final position is the QA, which I feel like is an appropriate one given my the rest of my you can got a good sense of my style by now. It feels an appropriate one to end on. Um, I only started doing it about a year and a half ago. And the reason I started doing it is because I read somewhere, I can't remember where, that the only way to get good at doing a QA, it might have been in the section in the spotlight, actually. Um the only way to get good at doing a QA is to just do a QA. And you can't anticipate what people are going to write when you give them freedom to write anything on a piece of paper. So you've just got to back your instincts, uh, trust your instincts, and back yourself to go up there and do with with that information what you can, and you do get better at it the more you do it. And I don't do it in a traditional sense of a question, uh, of audience asking a question, me providing an answer, because I'm aware of my position in society as a 25-year-old performer, and I don't necessarily I don't think in any way that I have any authority or right to answer somebody's question. Um, so I frame it through a more playful lens. Um, I get them to write uh fun facts, um, secrets, things like that that are playful. Um, and they provide great great detail sometimes, sometimes too much detail. Sometimes I have to skip them or be very delicate with the way I reveal the information. Um, but it's a lot of fun. And I've got some anecdotes from the QA's, if if you want to hear it, some crazy coincidences that have happened. Uh, I always do it in a way of I before I do the QA, I've done a very silly, playful, uh sort of dare I say, comedy mind reading show. Um, and then I sort of bring it down before the Q ⁇ A and I say I acknowledge my position as a performer and how it's it's genuinely a privilege to be able to break the fourth wall and get to know the audience. Um, I've already pulled a couple QA slips at this point out of the out of the bowl to use people for different things, and how most performers across the entertainment industry don't have the luxury to be able to actually talk to their audiences because I do, and I really like that. So that's why I use this fun fact thing. I'm gonna try and read your minds and get to know you at the same time. And what I always find interesting is after doing so many shows, coincidences happen all the time. Like that will just play into your hand, and audiences will always find a coincidence. And the amount of times an audience member will come up to me after the show, be like, oh my gosh, before that show, I honestly I had the number 72 in my mind all day, and and then that just happened to be the number in the magic square or whatever it was, and you go, Oh, that's very you just go, that's very interesting. But you've got to take it because that is just they've just convinced themselves that you've implanted that in their mind all day or whatever. Um, they they love it, and some coincidences that have happened in in QA's in my show, uh, was one time I pulled a slip out of the bowl and it said, I have the same birthday as my sister, but we're four years apart. Which, when I revealed it, I deliberately took a slight miss on it and revealed them as twins, um, just to offer a more believable credibility with that. And then when I opened it up, I went, Oh, four years, how does that work? And then she goes, Oh, well, my sister was born on the 22nd of June and uh 1994, and I was born on the 22nd of June, 1998, whatever. Um, and that's fascinating, fascinating. I pulled the next slip out, and I promise you this is true. I pulled the next slip out of the bowl, and it said, Me and my brother have the same birthday, but we're born four years apart. And they were two different people. They did not know each other, they did not know they were going to write the fact down, and this is an audience of about 50 people, and they were on the same cruise ship at the same time. Only 15, I only get like half the audience to write a thing on the slip of paper because on a cruise ship we don't have a lot of card going around. And I was like, what are the odds of them both having the exact same interesting fact about themselves, both being invited to the same show, both writing it down, and then they both getting pulled out the bowl next to each other because not every slip gets pulled out their bowl, and it was just the most unbelievable figure. It was really hard to sort of hide my own surprise when that happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:14

But surely you took credit for it. I will all day long I would have taken credit for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:20

They all walked out there thinking I was the best psychic they've ever seen. I didn't even claim I was psychic. Um but uh yeah, so things like that happen, and it wouldn't have happened if I didn't open up the floors. The QA provides you with those opportunities. Um and the revealing is so fun when you get a good fact, uh, in my case, a good fact, is so fun to reveal.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:40

It's also interesting that you mentioned the uh that coincidences happen so much because myself and my brother are born on the same day, but five years apart.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

You're joking.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

I'm not joking at all, no. Oh my god. So that's that story was the perfect one to tell because you know that just goes to show that these coincidences that we think are uh really unique are actually not. I I think it's Tim Minchin that says anyone who thinks that one in a million is rare is stupid because one in a million happens millions of times every day. Um, and as mentalists, we can use those little things to to our advantage, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:23

Absolutely, and yeah, I mean it's the there's so many decisions made every single day. I can't remember who says it, but uh there's so many decisions made by billions of people every single day that the only truly weird thing would be if no weird things happened at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

Exactly that.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:38

That's that is remarkable that you and your brother are if only if only it was four years apart, eh Jamie?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:43

No, it was it was so close. Off by one. If ever there was a trick that you needed off by one, it was that. So where because obviously you mentioned Christopher Carter, he has got stuff on QA. Um, there's quite a few different people that have uh are popping up with QA methods. I know Luch has his frameworks, he's also got a new product at the time of recording coming out based on QA, which is really, really clever. So, where would you recommend people start learning?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:10

I just I I'd I'd try and read as much as you can. I think uh get a knowledge of just QAs in general. Nestor D over at uh D Secrets has a taxonomy of uh QA where he goes over all of the different methods of of QA. Uh he doesn't detail the like like he doesn't teach them, he doesn't detail the methods because they're not his to teach, but he basically went down and searched for uh every single QA method there was and put it in an almost bibliography for you, uh, which is great if you just want to see how many there are. Um Alexander McClear um has some great stuff. Uh Mark Paul's QA is fantastic. Um Lucha's stuff is great. Uh Christopher Carter's stuff in his book is great, even though his book is interesting because it doesn't focus as much on method, it focuses more on how to reveal, which is really important. Um yeah, I think I I I use Alex McClear's uh QA method, which is a relatively um I I don't want to say simple because QA is a difficult one because it does require a lot of focus and a lot of um uh memory um in the moment. You have to be quite you have to be very present, you can't be on autopilot with it. Um you should never be on autopilot when performing anyway, but you know. Um but it is a really fun one to perform. Uh so yeah, but also the history of QA is weird. If you look on um uh the Conjuring archives at like the history of the QA, I found one which was like hundreds of years old, and they put their questions in like the fingers of gloves, and then they cut the fingers off the gloves, and then they like reveal it. I was like that. I love how extra Victorian mind reading was.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

Yeah, I think uh QA is a really interesting one. It reminds me, it's like a dance, right? It's it's uh it's a choreography, really, that you're going over, but each each move in that dance has to be there in order for to facilitate the next move. So when you mentioned about being present, that that's the whole point, you know. You've you got to you got to keep that process going, you've got to know where you're going next, you have to know it like the back of your your hand. And then when you see someone like Christopher Carter or um you know Alex McAleer, who I I saw his show last week, when you see them perform their version of a QA, it doesn't come across like they're thinking because they're they're able that they know it so well, they're able to put in these one liners and and you know interact with the audience and have those quips and those quick lines and those moments. And I think when you get to that stage with a QA, that's when it must feel like you're really reading people's minds because it's just gonna be come naturally to you.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

Yeah, I agree. And I'm I'm nowhere near there yet either. But I but I'm really enjoying getting the reps of the QA in and trying to keep keep figuring out new ways of of revealing information, seeing what's presented, what's offered. It's a choreography with the movements and with the technique, but it's improvisation with your words and your mind. So it's kind of like you've got to really pay attention and and one of the most important things I think this comes a bit more naturally to me because of my acting training. But be being present in the moment and being able to like recognize an offer when an audience member gives it which in QA it's it's easier because you know there's going to be an offer because you don't know what they've written. And it can be so interesting sometimes. Sometimes it can be like I have a dog and you're like then other times it's crazy and it's like oh my god yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:59

Well I think that's a great list. Let's quickly go over it. For your welcome package you have multiple selection routine with mentalism reveals your first position you had fourth dimensional telepathy. You had uh the Dart Lottery Liquid forks you had ESP cards with four lab coats and four clipboards you had location location location you had a three billet routine you had a book test and you finish with a QA. I feel like that's a pretty solid stage parlor mentalism list uh other than the card trick. Yes other than that quite right unless you've got a camera you may have a camera on your island.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:35

Well it is funny you say about the camera.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

Say nothing more say nothing more. Right let's go to your banishment.

Burying The Stage Camera Debate

SPEAKER_03 1:07:41

So Oscar I want you to imagine that you are going to dig a big sandy hole you're going to throw something inside what are you going to banish onto your island I'm going to banish a camera and honestly everyone's going to think that you already knew that before I said that but I I promise you I haven't said that um before uh I I'm going to banish a camera but I'm not going to banish a camera completely I'm going to sort of bury 75% of the camera because I'm not totally against using cameras on stage to enhance the visibility of certain routines but I do get frustrated sometimes when I see shows on stage in big rooms big theatres and the majority of the show 80% of the show is done for the camera close up effects for the camera and and it extends beyond magic as well I I um there's a big trend it feels in sort of Western theatre at the moment as well with mixed media productions and and performances on camera and they do very well uh they sell a lot of tickets and the critics seem to quite like them but I've I've not taken two of them I saw this is a bit of a sidestep but I saw Cynthia Revo play Dracula recently um in the West End. Now she is an unbelievable powerhouse of a performer and she was fantastic in the show but a lot of the show was done to a camera her back was to the audience and it felt a little bit like what is the point in coming to a beautiful West End 3000 seat theatre to watch this and I could have just seen it. I could have just watched the movie of it you know um and I feel the same way about about magic that has done close up tricks uh for camera um and I think that it can be a wonderful wonderful tool to increase the visibility of effects you're doing if it doesn't sacrifice the showmanship and the stage presence and the connection with the audience and some magicians do it fantastically and it's very uh well done in terms of the use of the camera but then sometimes I've seen some acts that have done 80% of the show to camera and it eliminates that connection with the audience um and it almost to me and I might I mean people might not like me for saying this this banishment um but it almost to me feels like there are so many environments in magic and this is just my opinion like completely just my opinion but there are so many environments in magic where close up magic is the is the is the magic that you do. I mean you've got walk around you've got weddings you've got uh corporate close up you've got social settings nightclubs bars even magic for your friends is close up if you if you just do that it's very rare to find yourself in a privileged position in my opinion to be on a stage with 300 plus people in the audience watching you perform and to then still do the close up magic for the camera I've um for me I feel like oh dude you've got such a controlled environment with these wicked lights and all these people watching you could do so much bigger and so much more than the majority of the show for the camera. That being said some people are are close up workers and that is that is their thing and who am I to comment on them taking that skill set onto stage um I'm not a particularly gifted um like I I don't put all my time and energy into into mastering like close ups light of hand stuff. So if that's what someone does and they do it on stage for a camera then who am I to judge? Because the audiences will probably love it. But for me I'm just a little bit tired of seeing the majority of a show done to camera. I think it should be a vehicle of accessibility and visibility for a routine rather than the whole show.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:27

And I think something that you just said there is interesting so one thing that I have always said is I think it's really important for us as performers to see other forms of adjacent theatre or performance. So musicals plays uh comedy all of that because it's live performance and you'll be shocked how much you can learn from a musical you know sound of music which is so far away from a mentalism show but there will be moments and beats and jokes and scenery ideas and set ideas that will inspire what you do and I know that uh again a slight sidebar here but you mentioned about Cynthia Revo. I know that Jamie Lloyd recently has been doing an awful lot in the West End and a few years ago he directed Romeo and Juliet starring Tom Holland and one of the biggest complaints in that show was people paid an awful lot of money to go and see Tom Holland act and the majority of it was him on screen. So it was filmed in different parts of the theatres and then projected onto a screen so it felt no different from those audience members it it actually it pulled them away from the performance is is is the answer. It made them not feel as invested or as involved that being said like you say I do think that there are moments in a show where cards for example on a stage having that camera there will mean that you can do that trick or not do that trick controversially going back to backing you up here with your your banishment the question you have to ask is literally like you just said there are so many other forms of close up magic if you need a camera on stage is that a trick that should be used on stage and in some in some circumstances it might be you know I I do know um a lot of performers who who use a camera in their shows and it doesn't take away from the impact of the routine it doesn't take away from the presentation the showmanship the the connection with the performer and the audience um when it's used in the right way I've never used one on stage so this is also uh not coming from any experience of me knowing how to use one in the appropriate way um and I'm sure there will be routines that I'm desperate to perform on stage in the future that will simply require me to have a camera but I just want to at all costs avoid it coming across like the audience of watching it in the cinema and not in a live theatre because I love theatre and live performances is a dying art form unfortunately it's having small resurgences every five years or so every now and then um but everything started with well I mean variety entertainment started with music halls the invention of the cinema then created made it made that redundant so we were just left with the big theatres and now the big theatres are going in a similar way with now using mixed media and I mean there's a lot there's an argument to say that cruise ships are one of the best places to see live theatre now that again a lot of people probably be like really um but on Virgin Voyages especially the shows are all all created in-house for Virgin Voyages uh rather than buying in a musical or buying in that um so there is a lot of change happening in that industry as well in terms of uh it it plays a much bigger role uh the cruise industry plays a much bigger role in the entertainment industry than I think people necessarily realise okay well cameras have been buried on your island but the very very top of it is still sticking out because you said only 75% of them needs to go. This is a tiny bit poking out so if anyone wants to go back and get it one day they can. Right you've referenced that you're a bit of a reader throughout this you've referenced a couple of books you're only allowed to take one though Oscar so if you were to take one book to your desert island which book are you going to be stuck with for the rest

One Magic Book For Life

SPEAKER_01 1:15:36

of your days?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:37

One magic book cracky now I was torn yeah I'm only gonna take one book but can I tell you can I talk about what two things I was considering taking.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:49

We we love an honourable mention.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:51

Okay good so I was torn but I also don't know if one of them is allowed because I have uh I was wondering if I'm allowed to take the entire Jinx catalogue well I do believe that there is a collective works of the Jinx Right which would technically if it's all bound in one cardboard there is one book so that would be what I take um because the wealth of information and the the the history and the ideas there would keep you busy for however long it takes until you're saved from this island. But the honourable mention would be Unreal by Bruce Bernstein as a uh as a contemporary book to counter the the classics of Jinx. It is fantastic I've got it here it's um it's one of the best I honestly think the at first the only thing that I thought at first was I wasn't crazy about the the like actual copy of the text on the page I was like this is all very close together but that now I realise it's a great idea because he's packed so much more into this book than than he had to um the the diversity in effects the the stuff with cards with ESP cards like I said the backbone of my lab coat routine was in here and it's on page 22 if you're interested um just don't steal the lab coat idea um but uh yeah it's got um incredible stuff and he's got some wonderful thinking wonderful subtleties um and that is probably the honourable mention but I would if I was stuck on a desert island truth like truthfully go for go for the catalogue the complete works of the Jinx because that's what everything every mentalist idea pretty much these days you can find a version of it from 80 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:41

Well the the funny thing is I think that the you mentioned the the way that um unreal has been typed it reminds me of the magazine style it's that same kind of like condensed really quick snappy explanations uh to get it in but I agree and I think that the one thing that I think someone should do one day and you know again like you just said this is an opinion it may be wrong is someone should take those old magazines and reformat them so that things aren't kind of all over the place because I know some people want to read the old magazines but they find you know you you'll start a trick and then it'll just finish and say well it starts again on page 83 so then you've got to go to page 83 to carry on that effect so it would be great if one day someone could take all of those and update them so that it's just a a bit easier to read and to navigate um and then it might be easier to even catalogue things a bit bit better so it's not all over the place but I love going through old magazines and finding a gem just that one thing that you know no one else really knows. And then when you show it to someone who's really knowledgeable and they're like what I've never seen that before is that new and you're like no it's like a hundred years old it's a very very old trick there's nothing better.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:07

If I am giving a give a shout out to uh Julian Loesler who's a good friend of mine he's a phenomenal mentalist uh French mentalist and he has gone through uh a lot of animans stuff and repurposed it and and added his own things to it um and if you search his name uh online he has billet masterclasses or and billet workshops and stuff um and they're they're fantastic if you want an introduction uh to Animan and the old billet work but through uh a obviously 20 21st century um uh video download um that is a great way to just be able to learn some of those things without having to read through the the magazines or the or the old books and things that being said though you can't go wrong with practical mental effects but it is a little tricky to read I will I will say um so yeah shout out Julian because his it was funny he came on the ship when I was on the ship with Tom Crosby Mark Spellman and Mark Paul and Julian came on and Mark Paul and Julian had had known each other or spoken and uh Julian started showing us at the table and I remember catching him at one point and he was like do you have 10 minutes and I said yeah and he sat me down and he did these billet tricks on me and they were flawless and they just blew me away um so yeah you've got to check out his work if you like the if you like the billet work.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:31

Amazing well I think taking the Jinx bound collection on your island is a great shout because you know I think you're gonna be reading through those for many years and not only is it a tome of a book but you'll be discovering things every time you read it. So I think that's a great choice. Let's go to your final item then and this is your non-magic item that you use for magic. Now I'll be honest when I mention a camera and you said oh it's funny you mentioned camera I thought

The Perfect Billets As A Prop

SPEAKER_01 1:20:57

you were going to take a camera not banish one. So that was interesting. So let's find out what you put in your item position.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:03

Uh this would be the Deborah Dale blank index card and this is another thing that Julian Losa got me onto and these are just blank business card size index cards that you can only get in America unfortunately so it's going to probably be very disappointing for everyone listening in the UK they're probably like why would you pick something only in America um but they're just they're great they're they're the right size for me uh the right finish thickness um they're the best billets I've I've used they're very cheap if you're in America um so I I try and stock up on them when I'm over there and bring back a few thousand um much to the dismay of my lower back when I'm carrying that through an airport. But they're my non-magic item yeah because I use them for magic every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:55

Okay I like that I I like the idea of just taking a stack of billets with you. Anyone in America, you know, send them over Oscar is waiting for you. So uh send over those billets. But absolutely right I know it it seems like a really silly thing to think about and I know that we've had a couple of com comments on videos before on YouTube about billets and why people care so much about pieces of paper. But when you're a working performer there are so many things to take into consideration you know the fact that a billet spreads like a deck of cards actually really aids in some methods but it also just makes you look competent. It means that things aren't going to get stuck together without you realizing obviously they need to be thick enough that they can't be seen through because that defeats the whole object of having a billet it needs to be a good size that it fits in most envelopes because a lot of billet work ends up in envelopes also needs to be big enough that if you were to fold it into quarters and require at least one of those quarters for a a revelation of something or or to see something then it needs to be big enough that someone can write that piece of information on. So there's many many things to take into consideration so the fact that you found the ones for you that work I think it is a nice little cheat code for people to look out for. I think one of our episodes recently we had one of our guests talk about going into a five guys in the UK and apparently they have a a board where you can draw things and pin your drawing on and he says that their billets are really good so every time he goes into five guys he just takes a massive load of these billets and he says you know it's it's free billets it's it's nice and easy to get to oh that's fantastic isn't it I mean honestly if do you remember the in the old Barclays uh banks they had the three pens honestly I I I'd be having them all the time if I was uh if they still did that well I think that's a great way to round out your list so one more time we had uh for your welcome package we have multiple selection routine with mentalism reveals fourth dimensional telepathy the dart lottery liquid forks ESB cards with four lab coats and four clipboards which is one of the weirder ones we've had location location location we've got a three billet routine we've got a book test which was actually inspired by uh mentalism incorporated and then we've got a QA your banishment was using a camera for the majority of stage performances but you can all get to that camera because there's a tiny bit sticking out of that hole on Oscar's island.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:36

Your book

Where To Follow Oscar Leonard

SPEAKER_03 1:24:37

is the Jinxbound collection your item is the Deborah Dale Blank index cards which you're hoping everyone now sends you that's a great list thank you now if people want to find out more about you Oscar and follow your journey as you carry on with your cruise ship work and maybe even send you some questions for advice and stuff like that where can they go to they can find me on Instagram which is the social media platform that I use the most uh Oscar Leonard with another D on the end because Oscar Leonard was taken uh that is O S C A R L E O N A R D D.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:17

So that's the best way to reach me if you want to um send me a message or follow my my journey and then you can find me on my website www.oscaleonard.co.uk spelt the same perfect so go there and uh follow his journey I'm really interested to see where you go from here on thank you so much for your time I'm so glad that we had you on and we kind of have a uh cruise ship perspective on things.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:43

I appreciate it yeah thank you for having me on I've been a listener for a while and it's been a pleasure to get this sorted. Um so hopefully see you at the shop soon as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:51

Yes hopefully and of course thank you all for listening uh I think that this has been a really interesting one with lots of things to think about uh and I'm hoping we're gonna get another guest on soon who specializes in larger scale magic shows for cruise ships which I also think will be a really interesting uh perspective so stay tuned for that we'll try and get some more cruise ship magicians on here uh because I know it's a really interesting area that lots of people want to get into and discover more of so thank you all for listening go over to Oscar's uh social media make sure you follow him then you can see some of the things that he's going to be getting up to and you may even see some clips of some of these tricks which I'm hoping for especially number four which was the ESP cards with the four lab coats and four clipboards uh so we'll see you all next week with another episode of Desert Island Tricks see you later bye bye when I perform my gigs I look at effects that tick these three boxes is it super strong and powerful yes will it last your spectators for a lifetime absolutely and does it leave them with a souvenir that perfectly captures the moment of magic if that all sounds exactly what your laughter look no further than the liquid folds.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:10

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Liquid Forks Closing Ad

SPEAKER_02 1:27:25

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