Guy Hollingworth

A magic classic finally gets its next chapter and the creator is as thoughtful as you’d hope. We’re joined by magical royalty, Guy Hollingworth to talk about More Drawing Room Deceptions, the highly anticipated follow-up to his legendary Drawing Room Deceptions, plus the re-release of the original book with a new chapter that shows how his routines have evolved through real performance. If you care about strong plots, clean handling and material that lasts beyond the hype cycle, this conversation is packed with gold.

We also invite Guy onto the Alakazam island and talk about his eight essential pieces of magic, one book, one banishment, and one everyday item he’d still use for deception. Along the way we dig into The Reformation (his signature torn-and-restored signed card), why slowing down can make an effect feel more impossible and how he designs methods like puzzles when there are no obvious “building blocks.” Expect practical talk on cups and balls, coins across, Professor’s Nightmare rope magic, stage manipulation, linking rings, gypsy thread, and even a modern phone-light miracle.

You’ll hear behind-the-scenes stories from the Magic Circle, what Guy looks for before he’ll perform someone else’s creation and where to find the Drawing Room Grand Tour details through the publishers at Vanishing Inc and Mike Caveney’s Magic Words. If you enjoy the show, subscribe, share it with a magician friend, and leave a review so more people can find it.

Guy Hollingworth’s Desert Island Tricks 

Welcome package. The Reformation 

1. Cups and Balls 
2. Half Crowns & Shell 
3. Professors Nightmare 
4. Billiard Balls 
5. Linking Rings 
6. Gypsy Thread 
7. Silhouette 
8. Luc Apers’ Chinese Silver

Banishment.Mutilated Parasol

Book. Expert Card Technique 

Item. Jacket 

Check out all of the details regarding his new book ‘More Drawing Room Deceptions’ here: 

https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/magic-conventions/drawing-room-grand-tour/

Find out more about the creators of this Podcast at www.alakazam.co.uk

Transcript

A Sneak Peek At The Book

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I can tell you that it is not all cards. So my first book was uh pretty well all card material. This is about half cards and about half non-cards. Uh there's a cups and balls routine, there are um coins, uh there are ropes, there are other things as well. So it's certainly not just cards. I mean, I think I've probably known for quite difficult move moves and magic, which, you know, for whatever whether that's a good or a bad thing. I've also put in a chapter about the material that I actually used to use when I was working, sort of doing the strolling magic type things as well. So I think there's a greater variety in this book in terms of the material and and in terms of the sort of the circumstances in which it can be uh performed. And I should say, I suppose while I'm at it, we are also re-releasing the first book with a new chapter. Uh so that will also be coming out, and there is a new chapter that's been added at the end, which updates some of the routines,

:20] Linking Rings And Creative Limits

SPEAKER_02 1:00

but also explains how I actually have used those routines over the years. Because, you know, when it when the book came out, they were all really almost by definition quite new, because I was pretty young at the time and I hadn't been doing

:18] Gypsy Thread Made Stage-Visible

SPEAKER_02 1:12

them for very long. Uh and a lot of them I still do perform the whole time. And so how I actually do them and how I all sort of routine them together and what I do in different

:09] Silhouette: Phone Light Magic

SPEAKER_02 1:20

circumstances. So if I'm doing a parlor show, what I'll do and how I'll go from one into the other, if I'm doing uh a more sit-down

:04] A New Copper Silver Obsession

SPEAKER_02 1:27

sort of gambling thing, if I'm actually doing strolling, if I'm actually doing impromptu stuff, how I actually

:08] Banishment: The Mutilated Parasol

SPEAKER_02 1:33

use the material from the first book. And I say the second book sort of picks up on some of that by having a

:44] One Book: Expert Card Technique

SPEAKER_02 1:38

section devoted to the sort of more commercial material that I uh I used to do when I was performing um more regularly.

Meet Guy Hollingworth

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Today is a very exciting one for several reasons. So the first thing I'm gonna tell you is if you were listening to this on one of the podcast platforms like Apple Music, uh, or Apple Podcasts, I should say, or Google Podcasts, etc., this is a video version. So you can actually go right now to YouTube and watch this on video. So if you prefer that kind of podcast, head over there now because, of course, we have a very special guest today. Today's guest is once again, I know that we've said this a couple of times on the podcast, someone that we've genuinely been trying to get on here for a very long time. He is probably one of our most requested guests as well that we've ever had. Um, so it's amazing to finally have him here. It's another guest who, if I'm entirely honest, it feels a bit weird giving him an introduction. We're gonna go for it because we're gonna stay professional. Uh, he is an absolute legend, so it feels strange giving him an introduction. But here's a little bit of backstory. He is, uh, of course, an incredibly well-known creator in magic, and he wrote a very famous book called Drawing Room Deceptions, which I have a copy here, and we're gonna talk about a follow-up book. Now, Drawing Rooms Deceptions was in 1999 that that was released, and we are just getting volume two now, but I'm gonna let today's guest talk about that in the episode. He was named Magician of the Year by the Academy of Magical Arts in 2008. He's been on uh incredible TV shows like NBC's The World's Greatest Magic, Heroes of Magic, the 50 Greatest Magic Tricks, which I told him I remember watching. It's a great programme if you can see it. Um, and he has written and created uh a one-man theatrical show, which is The Expert at the Car Table, which played at venues like Edinburgh, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, London. And of course, I did just mention that we do have a new book coming out, which is More Drawing Room Deceptions, which I know is a highly, highly anticipated book by many, many people, and I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on it. Today's guest, of course, is the wonderful Guy Hollingworth. Hello, Guy.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Hello, thank you very much. That's very kind of you.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Well, like I say, we're all very, very excited for what's coming

The Drawing Room Grand Tour

SPEAKER_01 4:34

up. Now, we just spoke about it before we started recording, but very soon you are off on a very, very exciting book tour. Uh, do you want to tell us a little bit about where you're gonna be and what that book tour is for?

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Yes, uh, absolutely. So, the book tour I'm gonna be heading off uh next week, uh, starting off in New York. And the first event is the 27th of June in New York, and it starts off with several events in uh the USA. And the idea of it is that this will be before the book is officially launched. So there will be events in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles. Uh, then I'm coming back to uh London and then heading out to Singapore. Uh and uh say the first of those is before the book is actually officially launched. And if people come to the event, uh there's gonna be a sort of book launch thing, uh uh an interview, question and answer, that sort of thing. I'll be demonstrating some things from the book. Uh there is also then a workshop where I'll discuss some of the new material and uh kind of lecture on that, and it'll be sort of fairly hands-on and give people a chance to uh to get to grips with some of that material. Um, and yes, if you come to those events, you'll be able to get hold of the new book before it's officially launched. Uh so that's the idea of it.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Amazing. Well, I'm sure lots of people are going to be very excited about that.

Why Volume Two Took Years

SPEAKER_01 6:00

My question, just focusing on the book, is so the first book was 1999 that we had Draw Room Deceptions, and it's a phenomenal book with you know, some considered some of the best magic that's in print. And the fact that it's stood the test of time is a testament to how good the material is. But why has it been so long from then until now to get this second book?

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Uh I couldn't think of a name. Uh no, actually, uh yeah, uh the um the title More Drawing Room Receptions, probably not my most original creation. Uh the answer, the reason why it's taken so long is well, there are many factors, uh, but largely uh I have been sort of distracted with a day job, unfortunately. Uh so you know, I'm not a full-time magician. Uh my first book I wrote while I was partly while I was a student, partly when I took some time off, after I was a student, before I actually settled down to sort of life. Uh, and so I had more time to put it together. And then I decided that I was going to become a barrister, and so I was training quite hard to do that, and then was working as a barrister, which is quite a busy profession. And so magic had to take a bit of a back seat. Uh, but you know, I've been I've still been doing magic in the background, uh, still been working on the one-man show that you mentioned and new material. And uh I suppose, like everybody else, when it uh during lockdown, everybody decided to write a book. And um I sort of thought, well, I probably have now come up with quite a lot of material over that intervening period, and maybe it would be quite nice to see if I could put a book together. So I just sort of started writing what I had, and it sort of weirdly fell into a very similar structure to the first book. I hadn't necessarily anticipated that, but sort of structurally it follows the same sort of pattern. Uh so I thought, well, actually, yeah, this probably is um, this probably is capable of being a new book. And yeah, since it does follow the same sort of format, I thought, well, I'll call it more drawing room deceptions. And um it took a surprisingly long time to put it all together and work out exactly how I was going to um not exactly illustrate it. I did the illustrations by hand for the first volume, and I realized if I did that, then it would probably be yet another 25 years before this book was ready because that was a very time-consuming process. So I've gone about it in a slightly different way. I'm not going to say exactly what it is because I want it to remain a surprise, but um I'm hoping that the book uh has a has a different but similarly sort of stylish feel. The first one was intended to sort of evoke the kind of art nouveau period. Um, I sort of generally think I'm about a hundred years out of date for the most part. So, you know, my first book came out in 99, so it's got a sort of 1899 feel. Now we're in the 20s, we're sort of edging towards Art Deco and with a little bit of artistic license sort of film noir, which I probably came a little later, but that sort of style. So that's the style of the new book.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Amazing. Now, I'm gonna be that person because this podcast is gonna go out very early on in the tour. Are there any sneak peek or any exclusive things about the book that you can tell us just to wet our appetites a little bit more?

New Material Beyond Card Magic

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Well, I can tell you that it is not all cards. So my first book was uh pretty well all card material. Uh this is about half cards and about half non-cards. So there are quite a few other things. Um uh there's a cups and balls routine, there are um coins, uh, there are ropes, there are other things as well. So it's certainly not just cards. Um, it also contains uh as well as I mean, I think I've probably known for quite difficult move moves and magic, which you know, for whatever whether that's a good or a bad thing. Uh I've also put in a chapter about the material that I actually used to use when I was working, sort of doing the strolling magic type things as well. Uh so I think there's a greater variety in this book in terms of the the material and and in terms of the sort of the circumstances in which it can be uh performed. And I should say, I suppose while I'm at it, we are also re-releasing the first book with a new chapter. Uh so that will also be coming out, and there is a new chapter that's been added at the end, which updates some of the routines, but also explains how I actually have used those routines over the years. Because, you know, when it when the book came out, they were all really almost by definition quite new, because I was pretty young at the time and I hadn't been doing them for very long. Uh, and a lot of them I still do perform the whole time. And so how I actually do them and how I all sort of routine them together and what I do in different circumstances. So if I'm doing a parlor show, what I'll do and how I'll go from one into the other, if I'm doing a more sit-down sort of gambling thing, if I'm actually doing strolling, if I'm actually doing impromptu stuff, how I actually use the material from the first book. And I say the second book sort of picks up on some of that by having a section devoted to the sort of more commercial material that I uh I used to do when I was performing um more regularly.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Amazing. Well, we had the opportunity, uh, Guy very kindly went to the Magic Circle a few months ago and lectured for the Young Magician's Club, and I got the chance to see uh some of your performances. I saw a very uh amazing Tournament Restored newspaper, which I think was probably one of the best I've ever seen. Uh, and that's not just me saying it, it's uh it was amazing to see it. How much of the material has come from you trying to develop the show? Because I remember us speaking before, and you said that you were developing a new show and new material. So has that come from this book? A lot of those routines, things that you've refined through coming up with them for a show.

New Show Material Meets New Book

SPEAKER_02 12:03

The show that you saw at the Magic Circle was My Stage Act. And my stage act is not directly addressed in either of my current books. Um, Mike Caveney, who published the first book and who is co-publishing the second book, um, is trying to persuade me to write a third book about my stage act, uh, which I may do hopefully before another 25 years are up. But at the moment, I haven't actually um addressed that directly. So what you saw in the Tournal Restored newspaper uh is a stage act, which I came up with probably it's getting on for 10 years ago now, uh, because actually that was really how I started was seeing Channing Pollock. That was that was what made me want to be a magician, seeing him do that sort of classical uh sort of stage magic. So um that was always sort of where I wanted to get to, but I when I started, I didn't really I it's quite difficult for a I think, or it was at the time, for a sort of teenage schoolboy to put together a kind of sophisticated stage act. Uh so I kind of got diverted into doing the the close-up and then the parlor card magic. So that was sort of always what I wanted to do, but that uh that has sort of been slightly separate to what I've been doing in in the books. So um I certainly was coming up with new material to put together into another show. You mentioned my uh my show, The Expert at the Card Table. That used a lot of material from my first book. Um, and I now have a new uh one-man show, which is called Inevitable. And I did that for the first time in New York at 69 Atlantic earlier on in this year, in April of this year. And I since have done that in Munich in Germany, and I'm gonna be doing it uh later on in the year uh as well in a few other places, all being well, uh including in Paris, just uh towards the end of the year. So that's my new show, and a lot of the material in that show is from the new book, and those sort of evolved in parallel. So, yes, I was partly coming out with some new material, partly thinking, well, now I've got this material from the new book, what will fit in the new show? So that that's kind of the new show, and that's how it fits into the new book.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Amazing. Now, in terms of your list, then let's talk about your list, your your ultimate list of tricks. Now, you mentioned like Chan Pollock and maybe some other influences when you were growing up. Without saying what's in your list, how much of your list has come from either your own material or certainly influences that made you create some of the material that you've created?

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Well, herein lies the problem. And I have been slightly concerned about this because I thought there are a number of possibilities. One possibility is that this is gonna be an incredibly short podcast because I'll basically say I'd like to say eight packs of cards and just do my own tricks. But that I thought is probably not gonna be what you had in mind. Um, so I have tried to cast an edit wider, but look, I have to confess, and this is gonna make me sound like a horrible and very self-centered person, but I can't find a way of avoiding that. I had always been fascinated with creating stuff. And I think that comes after I had a grandfather who was a bit of a sort of mad inventor, and I've still got his old notebook, and he came up with all these mad ideas of just useful things around the house that he would build, and he was very much sort of an inventor. And um, my uh my degree, my undergraduate degree was industrial design. And so cut sort of coming up with things and designing things um is very much sort of part of what I do and what I what I like doing. And magic has always been really closely connected with that for me. I mean, the main reason I sort of always loved doing magic is I love uh coming up with things and working out ways of doing things and solving puzzles and overcoming problems. So I mean, I basically I kind of just do tricks that I've come up with. Now, obviously, nothing is completely original. Often I've base things on other people's methods, but basically, I don't really do a lot of other people's tricks, and I've hardly ever gone into a magic shop and bought a trick. You know, I'll buy a prop sometimes or a piece of apparatus, but it's very seldom that I'll go in and say, Oh, here's a here's a trick, and I'll buy this gimmicked thing or this particular thing that comes in a packet. So um, yeah, my list is not going to be um, you know, a a shopping list of things that one can get from uh dealers, I'm I'm I don't think. Um it's gonna be more uh kind of props and things that I have found ways of using. Uh uh, but I have thrown in a few things that I've sort of been intrigued by recently and some things that I'm sort of working on so that it's not just a plug for everything that's in my new book. Um, although there will be a few props uh from that. Uh so but that's kind of the way it is. Uh so yeah, sorry about that. I hope that doesn't make me completely unlikable, but that's just sort of how I do things, and uh it's gonna be yeah, more along those lines than sort of tricks that one gets from magic shops.

One Deck Trick: The Reformation

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Now, if it's your first time uh listening, the idea is we're about to maroon guy on his very own desert island. When he's there, he's allowed to take eight tricks, uh, take one book, banish one item, take one thing that is not inherently magical, but he uses for magic. And of course, this is season three. Uh and even though he just mentioned he would take lots of decks of cards, we've given him a deck of cards. So this deck of cards is in his welcome package. He's allowed to do one trick with this deck of cards. So, guy, if you had to do one trick with this one deck of cards, what is the trick you would do?

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Well, it probably has to be slightly predictably uh one um that you I think mentioned and you're familiar with, a trick which is called the Reformation, which sort of is the trick which I kind of owe most to because it was sort of a trick in the right place at the right time that I think sort of got me in some way noticed. And I did it on that show. You mentioned the world's greatest magic when I was 22. And of course, that was back in the days before there were these sorts of podcasts, before there was really a lot online, um, and there weren't sort of streaming shows. So the way people saw magic was on TV, and that show, The World's Greatest Magic, was an annual show in the US. And I mean, I had no idea of it, but since I've spoken to colleagues in America and friends in America, who've said, you know, that was that show was quite a big thing. If all the magicians watched that, and when there was something new or unusual on it, it sort of created interest. Uh, being in the UK, I had no real concept of that. I was just uh asked to be on this show and I was flown over to America. I did a bit and I flew back and I was at university. I didn't even realize when it had come out, and then suddenly it came out and people seemed to like it. Uh and this trick that I did, the Torn and Restored card, which they called the Reformation, uh, seemed to generate quite a bit of interest. And I think the reason for that was uh probably twofold. Firstly, it was, I think, unusual in the in most torn and restored card tricks, uh a card is torn up and then it ends up somehow having been restored. Um, and in this version of the trick, the four pieces individually get put together one at a time. So you take two pieces, they stick together. So you've got a half a card, the next piece then gets added on, so there's three-quarters of a card, and then finally the last piece, which fits in the missing uh corner, is added on, and the card is signed so that people can see their signature throughout the trick. So the piece-by-piece aspect to it um I think generated interest. And related to that, it was uh a little while after David Copperfield had done um a routine called Torn Asunder, one of his specials, uh, in which he had done a torn and restored uh collectible baseball, very, very valuable baseball card. Uh, and I confess I still don't know uh exactly how that worked, but I believe it is not uh um a method that is particularly practical in a real-world scenario. I mean, it looked great on TV, and I'm not suggesting it's camera tricks or anything, but it's just from a practical point of view, it was not something that one could necessarily do kind of impromptu when walking around and doing magic for anyone at any time. So uh this was a method which uh looked a bit similar to something that people had seen uh David Cockfield do, I guess. So it sort of created some interest, and it sort of is my go-to trick. And the weird thing about it is uh I guess it's quite difficult, but it sort of seems to be the trick that is sort of completely ingrained into me. So, you know, most of the time, if I'm gonna do a show, certainly my stage act, even though I've been doing it, as I say, for about 10 years, um, if I'm gonna do my stage act, I will always rehearse it a few times before I go out and perform it. The reformation seems to be something that even if I haven't done it for weeks or even months, I can just sort of do. It's just kind of like riding a bicycle, it's sort of ingrained into me. Uh, and one of the things I remember is I remember coming up with the method while I was at university, uh, and it was almost as like a puzzle. I mentioned sort of liking coming up with things and solving puzzles. It was really just can I find a way, kind of as an intellectual problem, of doing this, of putting a card back together one piece at a time. And, you know, even if you think about the geometry of it, you can sort of tear up cards and you can fold them in certain ways, but there seems to be no way of showing three-quarters of a signed card and putting the last piece on and then actually restoring it and giving it out without there being any tears. I mean, no matter how you folded it or tried to conceal it, doesn't seem to be possible. So just as a sort of a concept, I came up with it as an idea, and I had no idea if it was going to work. And I remember when I first started doing it, it looked terrible. And I didn't really I didn't know if that's because it was a terrible method or if it was basically just because I hadn't practiced it enough. So I just kept doing it and doing it until I think it got to a stage where it looked okay. And I say now I've done it enough that I have some confidence that it seems to seem to. Work and people like it.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

When you come up with a trick like the Reformation, what's the process that you go through to even begin coming up with a method for making

How Guy Invents Methods

SPEAKER_01 22:12

it happen?

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Well, I think there's no one answer to that question. Um, I suppose for a trick like that, uh, it is kind of brute force. And I say I think the fact that that was come up with uh I came up with that while I was at university studying design, I don't know whether or not I was using sort of the principles, either consciously or subconsciously, that I was learning in that course about uh designing things. Um, but you know, there are just sort of certain if you just start with a a card and you just start tearing it and folding it and thinking about how it can all fit together, you can just sort of you end up going through possibilities. And I figured out, well, if I want to have that three-quarter piece, I should say, I mean, I I started with uh JC Wagner's uh version. He had a great torn and restored uh card. Uh and I start uh, but in in that version of the trick, it's not a piece-by-piece restoration, and you don't restore the last quarter, so you're left with three-quarters of the card, and the the final quarter is sort of like a receipt that you give to somebody. So, you know, you you tear a card into four, you give give away a quarter, and then you restore the uh the other part is restored, so you've got three-quarters of the card, and to prove it's the same card, you show that it matches. So, my first idea was to make that a visual trick. So I started with JC Wagner's method and just thought, well, okay, rather than just having all three quarters restore at the same time, can I do it piece by piece? So I worked out a way that yes, I actually could actually I can show this first piece and a second piece, and I hold them together and I can kind of meld them together so it looks as if they've restored, then I can take the third piece and put that on, and again it looks as if it is restored. So that kind of looks nice. But the fact that you then show that the last piece matches, obviously, when you've done it piece by piece, everybody is gonna say, Well, okay, can you stick the last bit on? Uh, and I tried to come up with all sorts of justifications as to why no, I couldn't, because I'm collecting pieces of cards or you know, some sort of cheesy backstory. Um, but it kind of I realized if I'm gonna do this as a piece by piece, you have to put the last piece on. So it was just kind of bits of folded card uh from JC Wagner's um version, and realizing, oh well, actually, if instead of that I did that, and I suppose I could do this and that could open like that, and can I um and often with tricks, you know, there are building blocks in place, like with a card trick, you know, if I want to make a card appear in an impossible location, you know, I can think, well, fine, I can control the card, I can use a pass. Uh, if I want to make it disappear from a packet, I can use an Elmsley count. If I want it to appear over here, I can palm a card or whatever. You know, there are sort of standard building block methods, but with this trick, there weren't any. It literally is just like I've got a pile of torn cards and I've just got to come up with something. And it was just sort of trial and error. Um, so I don't think there's a particularly good answer to the question. I did subsequently um specifically try and apply the design techniques that I'd learned at university to magic, and I did a lecture for the magic circle at their centenary, uh, and I put out a booklet called Waiting for Inspiration, uh, which did address in detail the sort of the design process, uh, which I think was quite interesting as an exercise and to see how one might use kind of design principles from the world of industrial design to identify what would be a good trick, identify methods, refine them, and so on and so forth. Uh, and I have done that occasionally, but if I'm totally honest, that's not how I normally go about coming up with tricks. Uh, you know, that they tend to happen for more sort of organic reasons, if I'm totally honest.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Well, I'm glad that the reformation's in there. I think anyone playing Guy Hullingworth Bingo, I think that would have been on their bingo card. I think it would have been there. So let's go to your main list then, Guy. What would you put in your first position?

Desert Island Pick: Cups And Balls

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Well, um, I have to confess I don't I didn't realize that I got a free pack of cards. So that's good because that means I've now got an extra slot because my first slot was going to be a pack of cards. But since I've got one of those anyway, I think my first slot is probably going to be uh cups and balls. Uh for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is kind of a classic effect, and it's one that I think sort of fits my uh performing style. And secondly, it is a routine that I have done on and off for quite a long time, and I've been doing my own version of it for the last uh, oh, I don't know, 10 years, I suppose. Uh, and it's sort of crystallized into the version I'm currently doing, probably in the last five years. Uh, and it's sort of one of my favorite routines to do, and it is in my new show and it is in my new book, and so I'm sort of I'm I'm kind of a bit in cups and balls uh mold. And um, so yeah, I'm gonna take some cups and balls with me, but I'm afraid I'm not going to take a set that I have bought from a magic shop. Uh, because one of the things that I discovered, I've always just been a bit resistant to just buying things from magic shops. I don't know why if it feels like it's sort of a cheat or a shortcut to me. I'm not suggesting it is, but for some reason I've tended not to do that. And I kind of just I think it probably stems from when I used to go to magic conventions in the 80s and 90s, and there was quite a lot of rubbish on dealers' stands and a lot of things that were not very well made and in sort of plastic freezer bags. You know, nowadays there are a lot of really beautiful things being made and made available. And certainly from my perspective as a schoolboy or a student, uh the things that I could afford when I went to magic dealers uh and magic conventions were tended to be a bit cheap and nasty. So I never really liked this the sort of cups and balls that were uh accessible to me. Uh and I discovered kind of by accident that there are things called Jefferson cups. Jefferson cups were designed by Thomas Jefferson, President Jefferson. Uh he apparently was bequeathed a gift of a large amount of silver which he didn't like, which he had melted down, and they were made into these cups, which have become known as Jefferson cups. Uh and uh they're available. Uh I don't know if they're available in the UK, but in the US, you can go into sort of trophy stores and buy Jefferson cups. They're sometimes used as gifts at graduations and things. You can find them on eBay. Uh and they are astonishingly perfect for cups and balls. They are a really nice, they look beautiful, they're very simple. They don't have those sort of ridges around them, which a lot of cups and balls cups uh do. But still, if you just put one on top of the other, they stack perfectly with just the right gap between them to put a ball in the middle. They've got a little dimple in the base so that if you put a ball on the top, it doesn't roll off, and they're the perfect size for a final load. So unwittingly, uh President Jefferson designed the perfect cups for cups and balls. So I will be taking, please, a set of Jefferson cups uh with me. And um I used to do a sort of a version of David Williamson's routine, which is a great routine. It's a two-cut version, I still do a two-cut version. Um I realized it didn't really suit me at all, though, because um certainly if you do it the way David does it, it's it's an amazing routine, but it's also a very funny routine when sort of car uh the balls kind of appear, you know, keep keep appearing and sort of misbehaving and things. And it's done quite briskly, and it doesn't really suit my sort of pace of magic. So I do a version of the cups and balls which I call the slow motion cups and balls, uh, which is intended to be kind of uh slower, because I think a lot of cups and balls routines, and I think a lot of magic in general, uh, is often performed quite quickly because the method is a little bit questionable, and the idea is sort of to hold people's attention long enough that you've got the big finish, the kicker ending. So a lot of cups and balls routines are a little bit sort of inconsequential. A cup a ball jumps over here and there and it's oh, it's kind of quite interesting. And then, oh well, there's an orange, or there's a final big load that nobody sees coming. Uh, and I think that's the same with quite a lot of coin tricks. There's a slightly iffy matrix or something, which is just sort of enough to keep people's attention until there's a big jumbo coin at the end, or a weird packet trick that sort of cards turn over and it's not really very engaging, but then they've all got different coloured backs or something or other. So um my sort of aim, and I don't know if it's if I've succeeded or not, but were was to try and really make the initial part of the trick powerful. So, because you know, if you think about it, if you if you really did show a cup empty and put it on the table, and you really did show a ball and the ball disappeared and your hands were empty, and you lifted the cup and the ball was underneath the cup, that would be amazing. And yet, quite often I think it's almost thrown away because one is so busy trying to get on with the method and make sure that the audience doesn't catch up with you. So I do a quite slow version compared to I think a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Um, and yeah, so that'll be my first one, will be my cups and balls trick, when it comes to your cups and balls routine, then I know that you mentioned David Williamson there. Is yours built up of lots of different people's? Or did you kind of go the route that you said with the Reformation, where you kind of just went, I'm just gonna start completely clean and come up with my own version? Or is this like a part of lots of different people's influence?

SPEAKER_02 32:01

I mean, inevitably there is lots of people's influence, but I think probably it's more the latter. I did just sort of try and start from scratch. I have a slightly bad habit of doing this, actually. Um I kind of quite often like to just try and see what I come up with as uninfluenced by others as possible. Um, I'm very sort of I always I was Leonard Green was a big hero of mine and uh still is a big hero of mine. And um, you know, I'm very conscious of the fact that he came up with these completely new ways of doing magic, was partly to do with the fact that he wasn't immersed in the sort of magic culture, and you know, he sort of came up with things independently, and that led to this really creative um approach. And there's what there's a part of me which sort of is a bit concerned that if I if I research every method of doing a particular trick, then is that going to shape my thinking as to well, that's how it has to be done? So I quite like to sort of start from scratch, um, and I'm not sure that's really a good thing to do because it often means I end up reinventing the wheel, and it then sometimes means that after the event I realize that I've come up with something which you know is related to what someone else has come up with, and actually they've got a better method. And so then I sort of will kind of reverse engineer that back into what I'm doing. So it tends to be a bit of a hodgepodge. But I think the starting point was I say, I wanted to be, I wanted to be slow and be able to pause during the effect. Um, and you know, quite often in a cups and balls routine, um, you know, without giving too much away, you know, if you stopped and the audience were to say, well, hang on, you know, let me see what's in your hands, you'd kind of need to, you need to get a move on before that happened. Uh so for me it was very important, particularly at the beginning of the trick, that when a ball has disappeared, I can actually stop and show that my hands are empty and then actually cleanly pick up a cut. So the vanishes were important. And so I started trying to think of ways that I could very convincingly vanish the balls uh in a way that allowed me to stop and not be concerned that I was concealing something. Uh so I think that was the starting point, and I used a method of Patrick Page, uh, which he actually used to vanish a jumbo coin, which I thought was great. Um it's it's done while you roll up your sleeves. It became it doesn't go up your sleeve, but in the action of rolling up your sleeves, you you're made, you're able to make something disappear. I thought that was great. Um, the difficulty with that is you then once it's vanished, you can't really get the object back again. So once you vanish the ball, it's gone. So I came up with a method uh of vanishing a ball, which hopefully looks as if well, your hands are empty, but you can then access the ball when you need it later on in the routine. Uh, and that's a method which I now use in quite a lot of other effects as well. Um, it's a method I call flapping, a bit like lapping, but uh flapping for reasons that uh I won't go into. Uh, but it is uh yeah, it's part of that sort of was the the initial building block. And then I started putting other things in from existing routines and you know, drawing on sort of classic routines to put the routine together.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Amazing. Well, let's build on your cupstables then. So in your second position, what are you taking to your desert island?

Coins Across And Coin Nerves

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Uh well, in a similar sort of uh vein, I kind of like objects that I can do more than one thing with. A trick that is just like a clever box that does this one thing, you know, that's kind of all very well, but because I do like the sort of creative side of things, um, I uh I like to have things that I can do more than one thing with. So I am going to be taking uh some uh some coins and I tend to use half crowns. Uh so I guess they're as good as any. I'll take some half crowns, thank you very much. And uh I have, as I mentioned, I I have been uh kind of doing a little bit more with coins recently than I used to do. I've always been a little bit scared of coins because um they make noise if you drop them, and they are much more susceptible to things that you can't control, like sort of humidity and moisture and sweat and all that sort of stuff. Uh and I always, you know, when I was practicing coin magic, it, you know, I would practice palming coins and doing things and feel fairly confident I could do them. And then if I was in a performing environment uh and I was a little bit nervous or a little bit sweaty, suddenly that sweat in your hand really kind of changes the feel of everything, and in a way that with cards, I don't think it does, or at least not so much. So um I've sort of often played with coins, but I I have not used them very much in my professional repertoire. Uh the one routine that I did use it, or I still do, is a coins across routine, um, which is a set of coins and also, uh, without giving too much away, uh I think called a shell. So I'll take one of those as well, please. Thank you, as part of my uh my trick. Um, and that is a routine that uh is that is very much based on other people's. It's got a lot of Larry Jennings uh uh influences in it, um, but it's uh it's a coins across routine. Uh and so if I have my uh set of four half crowns and the shell, I've got a fairly good routine that I'll be able to perform for anyone who happens to be on the desert island uh because that's been part of my repertoire for a long time. But also by having those four coins, I can continue to uh play around with other things, uh, including some stuff that I've been working on. Uh, have some productions and uh there's a thing that I do called the precarious production, which is kind of fun, a fun way of producing four coins. Uh so uh hopefully that'll keep me entertained as well as um entertaining the locals on the island if drawing.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

So when it comes to to this routine, uh a second ago you mentioned that you've been a little bit scared of coins because of the the attributes of you know they could slide and they could fall and they make noise. How did you get over that that fear and and allow yourself to start working with them a bit more?

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Well, uh, I'm not sure if I have, to be honest. Uh, but the I mean the the simple answer is uh to do things that aren't as difficult. So um as I've said, for whatever reason, I tended to do quite difficult, challenging things with cards. And for some reason that never really intimidated me. I just sort of quite enjoyed it, and you know, fine, you you you practice it and you can do it. So my sort of, I suppose my instinctive reaction when I was younger was to try and push the envelope and to try and do difficult things with uh with coins. I don't know why this is, by the way. I don't know why I had this sort of uh this idea of sort of doing difficult things. I'm not suggesting there's anything particularly beneficial. There often isn't. It's often much better to do something simpler, but just you know, I I had the advantage of essentially being a hobbyist and something, and I do these things because they intrigue me for whatever reason. So, particularly when I was younger and at school and as a student, I just kind of quite liked trying difficult things. So the sort of natural thing with coins was similarly was okay, I want to practice classic palming four coins and releasing them one at a time. And I worked out worked out routines that I could do using that. Um, but then as I say, if if you're suddenly it's slightly sweater or a hotter environment, or you know, something is just a little bit different, all that time that you put in practicing for me, I found, well, now I couldn't reliably drop the coins one at a time. So um, I mean, I still I still don't think I would attempt one of those routines in a sort of a high pressure situation. If I was actually doing a proper show that people were paying money for, or even if they weren't, you know, if I wanted to make a good impression, I would not risk doing a trick that does what I perceive to be those sort of more difficult um slides. So I guess the uh the routines that I do do are ones which are either not as technically demanding, so that the coins across routine that I do, uh, I don't think there's anything there that is likely to go dramatically wrong, even if in the heat of a desert island I'm suddenly sweaty and all the rest of it. Uh and I do have a few other routines which I suppose they are a little bit more technically demanding, but they don't perhaps rely so much on things which are as dependent upon, you know, kind of releasing coins one at a time. So um, yeah, I haven't overcome my fear of coins, but I have mitigated it by uh, you know, choosing particular routines that kind of I I feel reasonably comfortable doing.

SPEAKER_01 41:15

And is this coins across routine in your new book? Is this something that we're gonna see?

SPEAKER_02 41:21

It is, yeah. It's one I almost didn't include it because it's not dramatically original. It's sort of bits from other people's routines, but put together in what I think is a logical sequence. Uh, and I've included, as I say, a chapter which is um, you know, what what I suppose I would refer to as workers. So um, you know, I I don't shy away from the fact that a reasonable amount of my material would not be suitable for the people who are working at cocktail parties and corporate events and weddings and that sort of thing. Some of it is, and as I say, in my old in my first book, I've I've now written this chapter which identifies what I do do in different circumstances, and I certainly do do some of those routines. Um, but yeah, I don't really do it now, but there was a period of my life when I did do quite a few of those more kind of commercial engagements. And some of the things that I used to do and still do do, I think might genuinely be useful for people who work in those um situations. Uh, I have got a section in my new book about how I go about um approaching tables and introducing myself, which took me a very long time to come up with to work out what worked for me. So I hope that that may be of use to people who do do that sort of thing if they have a similar, um, you know, a similar style. Uh and yes, in that chapter, the cut the coins across routine is there. But I say it it's not uh it's not by any means a groundbreaking routine. It's a sort of a combination of existing routines, but in a way that I found work very successfully in a commercial environment.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

Amazing. Well, that's still something for us all to look forward to. Uh let's go to number three then, Guy. What is in your third position?

Rope Magic For Real Crowds

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Well, um, you may have seen a sort of a pattern developing here, and maybe this will be the last in this pattern before I break into something a little different. But um I'm sort of I've been identifying fairly classic pieces of apparatus that I can do more than one thing with. So I've got my cards, I've got my cups and balls, and I've got my coins. So the other thing that um I've sort of played with to some extent, which similarly has multiple opportunities and permutations, is uh is rope, magician's rope. And I am specifically going to be uh doing the unequal ropes or the professor's nightmare, which again is a trick which I have been performing for a long time. And uh it's something that you you occasionally see magicians perform in sort of little stand up performances, but it doesn't seem to be you. Used very much in that sort of strolling, table hopping kind of environment. And it was a routine that I was used to do in that environment, and I still do if I am performing in that kind of space. And I think it's I think it's actually a really good effect. So for anyone who doesn't know the plot, there are three pieces of rope of very different lengths: a short, a medium, and a long rope. And essentially, despite the fact the ropes are examined, they all become the same length. And then there's usually some sort of ending as well. But that's the premise of the trick. And I've always found it a very good way of engaging people, particularly at like a big banquet table, you know, if there's a table of 12 people, if you're just doing something that's very close up, like a coin trick or a card trick, it's very good for the people who are immediately next to you. But for the people who are right the other side of the table, often if there's a big kind of floral arrangement or a table number in the middle, it's sometimes harder for people to see. And I found there was a lot of mileage in doing kind of more stand-up material in that environment. And something as simple as the unequal ropes, you know, it enables me to give three pieces of rope to people in different places around the table for people to examine and get involved with. And when I'm actually doing the trick and stretching the ropes, it happens very much sort of high up at chest height so everybody can see it. So I always found it a surprisingly good effect. And I'm surprised that more people don't do it in that sort of environment. And um, you know, reverting to the sort of my desire to kind of invent and create and come up with different ways of doing things, um, I do have a couple of touches on it which work for me. Um, you know, there's a move at the beginning of every routine that has to be done in order to make it work, and I wasn't very satisfied with the methods that existed. So it's a very simple method, but one I which I think is effective. Um, and I have a display which enables me to show the ropes very cleanly and to show both sides of my hands to show that there's nothing funny going on before they all change length. Um, so it's one that uh again, I sort of uh have got a few ideas of my own on, and it's one that I've been doing for a long time. But also having some ropes with me gives me the opportunity to uh kind of work on some new material while I'm stuck on the island, uh, rather than being sort of stuck with just one trick that I have to do over and over again. So I like it for that reason. And I guess if I'm if I'm honest, the the core of this routine that I do is very much Dan Garrett's routine. Um, Dan Garrett actually influenced me an awful lot. And it's perhaps not an obvious connection because our styles were quite different. Um, but it's funny how things, you know, at particular times do have these sort of formative influences. Uh when I was uh at school, I was, you know, I got into magic when I was at school. I was about 13 or 14, and I was super, super keen. Uh I met a magician called Dennis Clark, who was very generous very with his time and used to uh lend me books and show me tricks that I could practice. Uh and he was a member of the Zodiac Magical Society, and that's in West London. At the time, the Zodiac Magical Society accepted members from the age of 16 upwards, uh, which was two years younger than pretty well any other um of the major magic clubs. And because I lived in West London, when I turned 16, he took me uh to the Zodiac Club on a on a Wednesday evening. And that was very much that was really um influential on me in terms of the people who I met and also what I saw. And relatively early on, uh Dan Garrett came and gave a lecture. Uh, it was part of, I think he called it the Dan Garrett Does the UK tour, and he had some lecture notes that went with it. And it involved uh, you know, I I was still quite new to a lot of this. I hadn't seen versions of Professor's Nightmare. Uh he also had uh what he called the one-hand switch, which used a lateral palm, which I sort of knew a little bit about through having seen Leonard Green, but it was uh again all quite new to me. And that switch has formed a very significant part of my stage act and several of the routines that I do from my first book, the cards coming through my jacket. Um, so a lot of stuff really stuck with me from when I saw Dan. So um I would say that my uh additions to the routine, they're really additions to Dan's routine. Uh, they're uh the the parts that I mentioned. There's a switch, which I think cleans things up at the beginning. There's a display, which I think makes the whole thing look fair at the point where people, if they wanted to backtrack, might think, well, hang on, was there something funny going on there? But the the essence of the routine is Dan's, and the best part of it is a sort of comedy bit which works almost automatically after the ropes have um changed to the same length. Uh I have a slightly different way of doing it, but it's basically Dan's um method. Uh the magician points out that actually, although they're sort of the same length, it's not perfect. You know, one of the ropes is still a fraction longer. Um as you point that out, when you then look back at the ropes, it's actually got longer still, and the other one's got a bit shorter. Uh, and you say, well, you know, maybe it's it's maybe it's an inch or two off. And then you look back and suddenly the long bit is like three or four inches longer, and the short bit is three or four inches shorter, and you look a bit puzzled, and yeah, well, actually, that's not quite right. And you glance back, and and it sort of happens completely on an offbeat. And it's the best part of the routine, and that's completely Dan Garrett's. So um he he has uh made far more contribution to it than I have.

SPEAKER_01 49:34

Amazing. Well, uh again, very much looking forward to to reading that, and I think it sounds phenomenal. Uh, let's go to number four then. So, what are you going to take in your fourth spot?

Billiard Balls And Act Pacing

SPEAKER_02 49:45

So I'm going to switch a little bit, but only a little bit, before I transition into things which I think genuinely might be a little different. Um, so I've been talking about things which are um, you know, I've been playing with over the years and which are sort of part of my general performing repertoire. So I think I probably do have to take something from my stage act as well, uh, which you mentioned a little while ago. So um I've already got my pack of cards, which forms part of my stage act. Um, my stage act kind of I um I wanted to I wanted to do a manipulation act. As I said, I saw Channing Pollock, and that really made a huge impact on me. And so I've always had at the back of my mind I'd love to do stage manipulation. But I think probably as a result of coming and spending a lot of time on close-up and parlor magic, uh, I sort of had very much in mind the idea of a trick needs to have a plot. You know, something needs, you know, this needs to be the start, then this is the middle, and then this is the end of a trick. And when I started to put together a stage act, I realized that a lot of manipulation kind of doesn't really have a plot. I would sort of liken it more to a fireworks display than to a sort of a dramatic story. There are lots of things happening, you know, there's a fan of cards, and now, oh, there's a candle, and oh, a silk handkerchief and a dove's come out. And, you know, it's lots of nice things to look at, like a fireworks display, but at the end of it, there isn't necessarily a sort of a narrative art that goes through it. That's not universally true, but I think quite often that is the case. And I realize that I wanted for a stage act, I wanted to have effects, you know, relatively, well, hopefully clear effects, but still performed in a manipulation style. So the way I put my stage act together is to have individual effects which are performed silently to music, uh, but I speak in between the effects to sort of introduce the next effect. And if if you saw me at the uh the Young Magician's Club, as you mentioned, you'll you'll be familiar with that. But that that's that's how I go about it. So my first section is a card section, and the second section really is probably my favorite piece, and it is a billiard ball section. So I will be taking uh some billiard balls, and I'm gonna take my own set of billiard balls. Uh, the method that I use is uh not the standard method for a billiard ball routine, uh, and it's not yet in my book, and so as to maintain the suspense for my third book, if I do finally write one, um, I won't go into the method, but it is um uh it is slightly different to the the existing uh standard way of doing a billiard ball routine. But essentially, there are three billiard balls, and uh they just disappear, hopefully, in increasingly more impossible and sort of cleaner uh ways, uh, and then they reappear back in the box which they came out of. And the reason that there are three, again, this sort of goes back to the narrative of it and my sort of little mini rant earlier about sort of weird magic props. Um, you know, billiard balls when we think of magicians doing billiard balls, I mean uh those of us who have seen magic promotional shots will instantly call to mind somebody holding billiard balls between their fingers. You know, so they'll have four billiard balls because you've got five fingers, you've got four gaps between them, so you'll have a billiard ball in between your fingers of one hand. And if you want to look like you're a really clever magician, you might have four in the other hand as well. So you've got eight billiard balls. Wow, he must be a great magician because he can hold eight billiards in between his ten fingers. Um, and this, of course, has literally nothing to do with any form of billiards. You know, to the average person on the street, billiards or snooker balls or pool balls are things that you put on a Bayes table and you hit with a a Q and they go into pockets. So, you know, you might perfectly reasonably pick one up, but nobody in their right mind would actually put four billiard balls in between their five fingers. And I think we've become so used as magicians to just well, that's what billiards is, isn't it? Billiard balls. And of course, this is related to the method. The standard method for doing it uh is made a lot easier if you do hold the balls in that way because you can do the sneaky moves in between your fingers and open things and you know, it's quite method-driven. So um I was quite keen to move away from that and to just handle these as objects, as like as billiard balls as as anybody would handle them. And yes, this the fact that you then in most routines have either four or eight billiards um is not related to any actual game. And because I sort of perform in a relatively old-fashioned traditional style, you know, I want the effect that the I want my act to feel nostalgic. I don't want to be doing old hacknid tricks, but I want I want the tricks to be modern in method and presentation, but the style still to be nostalgic. So I'm wearing tails. So the obvious thing for me is to use a set of billiards, and the game of billiards is traditionally played with two white balls and one red ball, or two cue balls and one object ball. Uh, and so I have a little mahogany box, which again is very closely based on the way you would have bought a set of billiards if you bought a set in the 1920s, and it contains the three balls that you would have. Now, whether anybody knows that, I don't really know. I do mention it, as I say, I speak in between the effects, but to me it now feels a little bit more authentic in that it's an object which at least has some existence, some reason to exist outside the world of magic. And I guess that's something I generally try to go for is I like to try and use things which appear not to be magic props, they are actually things that exist in the real world, and so I guess my billiard ball set uh hopefully fits that build.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Yeah, I remember this being a real standout piece when I saw you perform it. I think what really came across when I watched your act is there there almost feels like there's an internal monologue when you're performing it. You're you're stopping, and there'll be a moment where you're you'll look at something, and then that kind of triggers in your mind, and then something magical happens at that moment. And I think everything felt so deliberate and so thought through as you were producing things and making things disappear, and there is a brilliant end to that routine as well, which I just did not see coming at all, and really kind of just knocked me for six at that moment. I think it was, yeah, it's such a gorgeous routine.

SPEAKER_02 56:56

Well, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it is deliberate and it is quite slow. I mean, the routine lasts for um about three minutes, and literally three billiard balls disappear, and then they reappear kind of almost together. As you say, there's a little surprise ending as well. But so not a lot actually happens. Um, but uh I hope the pacing increases the effect as opposed to diminishing it. And it goes back a little bit to what I was saying about cups and balls, and I think sometimes tricks, particularly things like stage manipulations, you know, if you if you know the methods behind stage manipulations, uh, you know, if you make a fan of cards disappear, if you just stand there for too long, somebody is gonna say, Well, your hand looks a bit funny, Mr. Magician. So you kind of need to get on with the next bit and either reproduce them or do something else. So I do think that sometimes uh doing things slower does does increase the impact. Um and I also, to be honest, I think one of the things that I really love about that routine um is the music. It's a piece of music that I've loved for a long time, and it kind of in some ways encapsulates, I think, kind of the approach that I try and take to the magic. So I use um the uh score from Chinatown, which is written by Jerry Goldsmith, which is an absolutely gorgeous score. Uh, and I think I can't remember exactly when the film was made, but it it is sort of supposed to evoke uh a kind of uh an earlier 1930s sort of film noir feel to it, although it's a much more contemporary piece of music. Uh, and that kind of is the approach that I'm trying to take to magic. I'm trying to do contemporary magic, but in a way that evokes the feeling of something which is much older. Um, so I sort of I think of it as cutting-edge nostalgia.

SPEAKER_01 58:57

Well, it did it did take me back to like the first time I saw Lance Burton, and his style is very slow and deliberate, and it felt like you were going through a set of actions that felt almost spur of the moment. It was just happening there. This was your internal process, and these things were happening as you were thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

Yeah, I I think again, quite often a problem. I don't know if it's a problem, but something inherent in quite a lot of manipulation and particularly doing it fast, is a certain smugness or a certain um showy offiness about it. You know, if you're doing if you are doing something which is a fireworks display, and look, I mean, I love going to see fireworks displays, nothing wrong with that, but you know, it's a different sort of thing. If the act is lots of cool stuff is happening and things are appearing and it's very fast-paced, and there's loud music, and you know, it's kind of grabs your attention, that's fine. Um, but it can be a little bit, look at me, look at how clever I am. And I think another benefit of sort of slowing it down a bit is as you say, it gives you more opportunity rather than just going, well, look, here is something which I've obviously practiced a million times and I'm really good at it, and I'm just gonna do it at you. It I think does enable you to do it at a pace where the audience can catch up with with you and and appreciate the inner monologue and realize, oh, so he's now realized that if he does that, he could make the ball disappear. And now he's thinking, where's that ball gone? And oh, he's gonna reach up and produce it from there. So yeah, I think giving the audience the time to catch up with what you're thinking does perhaps give it a different quality.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:38

Well, it's uh a wonderful routine, and I also uh love that you're the only guest we've ever had on who is teasing their book after the book that they're already teasing, which I think is great. I'm a big fan of it. Um, but that's something for us to look forward to if you ever get around to doing a stage book as well. Uh, let's go to number five then. So, what's in your fifth position?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Okay, so I am now going uh in a slightly different direction because having basically just taken my act with me, I so far I could have basically just picked up my suitcase and taken it on the desert island, which sort of feels a little bit like cheating. So, and also it's gonna be a bit boring because I'm assuming I might be on this island for quite a long time, and there may be nobody to perform these tricks for, so I'm just gonna be practicing them so when I get rescued, I'm ready for my next gig. Um, but I think I probably will want to be working on some new material as well, because I say the sort of creative process is what really um kind of interests me about magic. So um my uh next item is gonna be a prop which I have very mixed feelings about. Uh I kind of am not sure if I really like it, but I think it definitely fits within my stage act sort of persona. So the other advantage of doing the stage act in the way that I mentioned of you know, doing a trick and then speaking and then doing another trick, is it sort of is quite modular. So if I needed to do a shorter version, I could take out one of those chunks and just do the first and the third tricks and not do the middle one. And equally, if I want to make it longer, I could add in another slot. So I always had that in mind, but at the moment I haven't got any routines to slot in. So I've often been thinking, well, what would my character, my persona do as an additional slot? And I think the answer might well be linking rings. So I'm gonna take some linking rings, uh, and in fact, I'm gonna take the set of linking rings that I've got quite recently. So I got the uh a set called the uh the wonderful linking rings, the TCC set, which I have been uh playing around with. And I as I say I have very mixed reaction, mixed feelings about it because it is in some ways it is a bit hackmed, but I don't know how many members of the public, as opposed to magicians, have seen it before. It's sort of it's the kind of thing that if you're at a magic convention full of magicians and somebody gets out linking rings, I think quite a lot of people, possibly myself included, groan a little bit. It's a bit like, well, we've seen this so many times, but I don't know if that applies to the public. And um I have been working on a uh routine which, again, a bit like the billiard balls, um, does not use the standard method. And at the moment, I'm in that sort of stage that I was talking about with the reformation when I was coming up with that, where I'm not sure whether this is a good method that I need to practice or whether it's a bad method. So I'm hoping it's the former, but it is, I think, a fairly unusual way to go about doing uh the linking rings. And um so I think I will probably have quite a bit of time uh to spend on the desert island working on it, and I'm gonna be seeing whether or not I can put this together into a routine which I'm happy with and which might slot in as a new segment uh in my stage act. So, yes, Linking Rings.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

Now it's really interesting because we're on the third year of this podcast, and Linking Rings hasn't been said a huge amount, but for the last three episodes, including yours, Linkin Rings has been mentioned. Really? Which is really interesting. Uh, and we we've discussed it in lots of different ways, you know, the idea that even if the general public does know the method of the Lincoln Rings, maybe we can actually use that against the audience, so to speak. Uh, and the fact that their their anticipation of the method means that, you know, what we can divert their attention, essentially. So for you with the Lincoln Rings, what made you go to that prop? Because you mentioned that you're not sure whether you're keen on the prop or whether it's something that you enjoy. What made you go back to the Lincoln Rings?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:22

Well, the sort of underlying premise with my stage act is I want it to. I I referred to this idea of nostalgia. Uh I look, I've never been particularly trendy. You know, at school, I was never the cool kid who had the new clothes and the this and the that, you know. Uh, and I think it's quite difficult to be trendy in magic. Uh, I mean, some people have managed, but you know, it's quite difficult. There is something a little bit old fashioned about doing magic. So although when I was younger I did try very hard to be cooler than I was, I kind of realized that wasn't going to work. For me. So I've sort of lent into the more traditional style of magic. And I don't think that many people actually do it. You know, I think a lot of people are trying to be a bit more sort of street magic, a bit more, you know, David Blaine started a real change in the way that magic could be presented. And that's great, but it doesn't really, it doesn't really work for me. So I've really sort of lent into it for my stage act. It is me entails. The introduction that I normally ask for, you know, calls back to the golden age of magic. And it says this is the sort of magic that perhaps our grandparents or even our great-grandparents might have seen. So the idea is I want this to be the sort of thing that audiences assume magicians do, but actually they've never seen, or they've never seen it done very well. So I mean, without kind of ruining the ending of my act for anyone who hasn't seen it, I do, well, I say without, I'm about to ruin it, but hey, I'll do it anyway. I do produce a rabbit from a hat. Um, and it's nowadays, you know, people I've lost track of the number of times I've seen publicity for sort of trendy magicians going, you know, this is new magic, no rabbits from hats. And I'm kind of, it puts my back up a bit. It's like, what's wrong with a rabbit from a hat? But of course, it is it is one of those things that everybody thinks is a cliche. But how many times has anybody actually seen a rabbit being produced from a hat? Uh certainly how many times have you ever seen it outside the confines of maybe a children's show where it's not meant to be like baffling, it's producing a rabbit for the kids or whatever. I mean, I can't think of really many occasions where one has actually seen a top hat with nothing in it and a rabbit comes out of it. And I think that's a cool trick. So um again, this is sort of trying to plug into what I think people assume magicians do, but doing it in a way which hopefully is different or more interesting than they assume. So that's that's sort of the premise of everything in my act. It's the sort of stuff. So the card section, people know magicians produce playing cards and new things and playing cards, but this is hopefully different to what they will have seen. And the same with the billiard balls. You mentioned the Torn and Restored newspaper, which then leads into the hat and the rabbit. So it's kind of my target has been to look at the sorts of things that people will go, oh yeah, like this is what magicians do. And then doing something which exceeds their expectations or which takes them by surprise. And there actually aren't all that many things that fit into those categories. You know, I could do something with ropes, I could do something with doves, but that's a headache. I'm not going to do that. Uh, I could perhaps do something with coins, but as I've said, I'm not sure I want to have coins falling out of my palm position on stage. So um this just seems like it's the sort of item which would fit within uh the routine. And I actually think from a creative, from the perspective of creativity, um forcing yourself to do something that you wouldn't naturally do sometimes does um produce outcomes that you wouldn't otherwise expect. I mean, I sometimes do this if I go to a really nice restaurant. You know, if I'm going to a really good restaurant that's got really good reviews, why would I order something that I would order at an ordinary restaurant? I might actually order something that I might think, well, I'm not sure I like the sound of that. That sounds horrible. Because if it's in a really good restaurant, maybe it's like, oh, I never realized that you could cook carbs litter like this, which is something I generally don't like. And I think sometimes actually taking tricks uh that you don't like or wouldn't necessarily choose forces you to approach them in a slightly different and more creative, uh creative way. Um the there's a principle I can't remember whose it is uh in writing. I think it's called creative limitation. You know, if you've got too many choices in front of you, it's actually quite hard to be creative. If you actually uh limit yourself to certain things and you force yourself to be creative in in that sort of smaller environment, it actually creates uh more uh more ways of coming up with things. So that was sort of my thinking. It's a prop that I think I like the look of. Not sure if I really like the trick. Can I find a way of doing it in a way which is both original and interesting? Uh and that's the sort of challenge that I've I'm sort of in the midst of working on. And I say I think maybe the answer is yeah, but uh yes, but maybe I will, while I'm on the desert island, decide this was actually a complete waste of time, and nobody will ever see me do a um a linking rings routine, but hopefully it'll keep me busy while I'm there.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

Let's go on to your number six then. So we've had a good mix so far. We started with cups and balls, we've got your half crowns and shell, we've had Professor's Nightmare, we've got your billiard balls and linking rings. A good mixture of kind of close-up parlour and stage going on. So let's go to number six. Let's see what's in your sixth position.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

Well, um, as I said, I uh tend not really to do a lot of other people's material. And uh, but I did also think, look, I don't want this just to be a list of my tricks. That just seems terribly self-indulgent. So as I'm getting towards the sort of end of my list, I'm gonna mention a few things that I've seen relatively recently um other performers do that I've thought, ah, I could actually maybe see myself doing this. So these are not tricks which I really do at the moment. These are tricks which I'm gonna take with me, a little bit like the linking rings, uh partly to entertain myself and partly to see if in fact I am gonna incorporate these into my uh into my repertoire. And so uh the this one is a version of a trick which I know a lot of people uh doing at the moment, and it's a great trick. And I have thought about it because I think it sort of suits me, and that is gypsy thread. So I could see myself doing gypsy thread, but I say partly I've I know quite a few other people who are doing it. And I just have a few reservations about it, and I think probably partly because I do I mentioned with the unequal ropes, the professor's nightmare, I do like things to be easily visible, and you know, this the very small size of the thread I think has made me a little bit reticent. So I recently, ish, probably a couple of years ago now, saw Axel Hecklau um giving a lecture about uh the well, various things, but including the gypsy thread. Uh, and he has got a great way of doing it with a much, much thicker piece of thread, almost like a piece of um cord or string. And I really thought to myself, uh, yeah, I think I might be able to, I could see myself doing this. So I think my next item is gonna be um gypsy thread and specifically Axel's uh version of it. Axel is very much the sort of person who does what I think I probably ought to do, but I'd probably, but I never really do. You know, when he he takes a problem and he always seems to research it and you know, really do a a deep dive into kind of all the different methods and then come up with something that's sort of built on those. I tend to do not so much of a deep dive, but a sort of shallow belly flop and just kind of land on kind of something that I quite like. And Axel uh actually is a good, it's a good example with the Torn Restored newspaper. I for my stage act, I knew I want uh a Torn Restored newspaper seemed like it fit my criteria of a sort of a trick that magicians do. Um I wanted black and white for reasons that if you've seen the act, you'll you'll understand it leads into the uh the top hat and the rabbit. Um but because my sort of signature piece is the Reformation with the pieces going back together uh bit by bit, I wanted my torn and restored newspaper to fit piece to piece. So, you know, I'd take small bits of newspaper and they'd stick together and then it would get bigger. So it isn't just one restoration, it's restored piece by piece. So I thought to myself, um, okay, I'm just gonna start from scratch for the reason I mentioned. And it took me an incredibly long time to work out how that might work. And after I'd come up with a method that wasn't too bad, I then looked at Axel's Torn and Restored newspaper, which I don't know. If I'd looked at it earlier, maybe it would have stopped me from thinking of things. But certainly when I looked at it after the event, um, I realized that there were certain ideas that he'd employed in his version that would improve mine dramatically. So, yeah, I've got a lot of respect for Axel. I think he's very good at um uh, as I say, looking really thoroughly and coming up with kind of a really great version of existing material. And uh the gypsy thread is just just one of those. And um, since since I saw that quite recently and I thought, yeah, I might be able to see myself doing that, I think I shall take that with me and I shall give it a go.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

Now, is this something that you're thinking for stage or close up? Because it's one of those really interesting routines that lends itself to both environments. Uh, I know Ben Ben Hart's got a phenomenal version of gypsy thread for for stage, which is great. So are are you going down like a close-up or for a stage routine?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:00

Uh I'm not sure. I I don't I don't think this would go into my stage act as such. Um the the kind of structure that my stage act is in, although I suppose it doesn't need to be like this, is very much sort of I I talk, hopefully there are a few bits of humour in between the tricks, and then there is a piece which is performed uh to music. And I'm not sure that I would see gypsy thread fitting in there. I mean, I suppose it could theoretically, um, but I'm thinking of it probably for kind of stand-up performances, sort of parlor performances, which I guess I mean I'm a little bit skeptical as to whether one really can do close-up magic, other than you know, for a few friends. You know, in a professional environment, as soon as you're performing close-up, if you get a few people together, I tend to think things that happen sort of down at waist level get lost quite quickly. I mean, I think if you're strolling around at a cocktail reception, it's fine. But as soon as you're working to sort of tables, as I mentioned earlier, you know, a big banqueting table that's got 10 or 12 people, doing stuff down at waist height, um, I just don't think really works all that well. It's just not visible for everybody. So one of the things that I mean, I think is typical of a lot of what I do is to try and elevate things so that they're more up at the at chest height. And you know, one of the tricks that I've done a lot, um, which was in my first book, which is called Waving the Aces, is a version of twisting the aces where the aces turn over one at a time, but they do so visibly. And um, my original handling was down at waist height, and I very quickly realized I needed to do it up at sort of chest or face height in order to make it work. So that's very much my sort of ethos is to try and elevate things. Uh, and that's one of the things I like about gypsy thread, that it is something that happens sort of higher up, it's held up so people can see it. So I guess I could see myself doing it in that sort of close-up environment, but most of what I do, I would say, is more kind of in a parlor sort of environment. And I think it would work there. And as I've said, I think the the bigger uh cord that um Axel uses, I think uh would would suit me very nicely.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:16

Uh when when you mentioned it, I actually remember the microphone that you use in your stage act, and I actually just had the image of you stood there in your tails with the microphone, doing this like very deliberate routine with the thread, with some sort of um script with like a really nice gentle score behind. I actually think it would really suit beautifully with your character.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:42

Well, that's interesting, and you know, I don't really know that this stage act that I'm doing doesn't have a particular sort of commercial raison d'etre. You know, it was just something I wanted to do a stage act, as I say, that was very much my my starting point with Channing Pollock. So I've got the stage act which runs for 14 minutes, and if somebody wants to put together a kind of variety show or a gala show, I can slot my stage act into it. But it doesn't actually have an awful lot of purpose outside that in the real world. So I I have been looking for ways that I could extend it. And I think you're right. I mean, if if it literally is trick to music, me talking, trick to music, you know, repetitively over half an hour, that probably uh is gonna get pretty monotonous. Uh so yes, maybe maybe you're right. Maybe there is scope for me to to break that pattern and to do a trick while I'm speaking into the microphone, and maybe this is it. So, well, thank you. This might have been a very valuable afternoon for me. I might end up doing just that.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:42

I'm already looking forward to seeing where that goes. We've got two more tricks left. So let's go for number seven, then, guy. What would you put in your seventh position?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:51

Well, I think again I'm gonna look at things which um I've seen recently-ish that I've thought, oh, I really like that. Um, this perhaps is a little bit surprising because it doesn't necessarily fit with the rest of what I do, but I really liked it. Um, so this is Tobias Dostal's silhouette. And I remembered seeing that, and as I've said, I don't really like carrying props around uh with me that don't look like sort of ordinary things. Um, I mean, I used to always carry a pack of cards, I don't even do that now. So if anybody does actually stop me and ask me to do a magic trick, I never really know what to do. Uh and a while ago, I would always just ask to borrow a coin and just do a sort of one coin routine. And of course, now fewer and fewer people even carry coins with them. So knowing what to do in that situation is becoming more and more difficult. And when I saw this effect, I thought to myself, uh, I could actually see myself doing that. Um the one thing, of course, that everybody does have is a mobile phone, but I just can't bring myself to do sort of mobile phone magic. I uh I mean there is some great, there are some great routines, there are some great apps, there are some great things, but I just it just doesn't seem like me. But for people who are not familiar with this routine, you use the the the torch or the light on a phone to cast a shadow, and the shadow sort of comes to life. And it has been uh I mean I had the thoughts that a lot of people in the review, the reviews have also had it, it feels almost like Peter Pan, or it feels sort of magical that the the the shadow is um doing something uh independently of whatever is casting the shadow. So, you know, your hand casts a shadow and then you move your hand and the shadow stays in place, or whatever. Uh, and I just thought it was such a lovely uh effect. Uh and when I saw the lecture, I uh was going to go and get it afterwards. And it was so successful he he'd sold out. And it's been on my uh shopping list ever since. So I still haven't got it. So this is quite exciting. I'll take it with me uh and unpack it on the desert island. And presumably, another benefit of this is that if I am allowed this trick, presumably I'm also allowed a mobile phone and a power source in order to do the trick, which I think might have considerable use on the desert island as well. So this feels like a bit of a win-win to me. It's a great trick. And also, in the event that the uh mobile coverage improves in future years, I might be able to get off the island by making a phone call with my phone and my power source. So pretty good outcome, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:44

So, two questions off the back of that guy. Um, the first question I have is have you thought about how you would use that in your act? Because there's some there's some lovely moments, and it it almost feels like it could be a lovely incidental moment where uh maybe as you're doing your car manipulation, you notice the shadow on your wall uh on the wall, you take your hand away, and then uh half a second later, then the shadow moves. Have you thought about how you would incorporate it into your performance?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:13

Uh well, not really, and again, this is actually proving to be much more useful than I thought. I might I might actually end up doing just that. So thank you. That's very helpful. I hadn't uh I hadn't expected this to be like a brainstorming session for my act. Very, very handy. I perceived that as something that I wouldn't use in my act. Uh I perceived this as being much more something that I would perform sort of impromptu. So, you know, I'm my um my official day job is as a barrister. Um, I've actually taken this year as a sabbatical, so I'm not excuse me, I'm not working at the moment, um, but I am, you know, most of the time I'm a barrister. And um occasionally the topic of magic comes up, and I am asked to perform something. And as I say, I ne I never really now carry anything that I can can use. I I don't typically have a pack of cards with me. Um, and I I just think that would be something interesting and uh quirky that I could do in an impromptu uh situation because everybody, I mean, I either use my phone or somebody else's phone or whatever, uh, as the light source. Uh, I also think one of the nice things about it is it has a certain sort of finality to it. The difficulty with having a pack of cards uh is you know, if you do a card trick for a group of people, if if one person kind of likes it, they'll say, I'll go and do another one, and it kind of goes on and on. And I don't necessarily want to do that, I just want to kind of tick the box, okay. You're a magician, I've done a trick, thanks very much, that's it. And I think the uh what I like about this is it's something that you can sort of do and it's happened, and you know, you're not going to repeat it and and and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:55

And in terms of putting a trick into your set that you've seen someone else create, so obviously, we've mentioned that uh the majority of the material that you perform is your own material, and you're talking about things that you've seen that you you would potentially put into your act. What does it take for someone to create something that would go into your act that isn't your own?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:19

It it basically needs to be something that fits with my style persona, call it what you want. I mean, I don't I don't think that I'm sort of acting when I do my uh my stage act. I I don't think I'm pretending to be something, but I suppose I am a character of sorts, I'm perhaps a more um slightly more exaggerated version myself. I mean, there are certain things that I think my character would and wouldn't do. So, I mean, certainly for the stage act, that that's the starting point. Is this something that somebody like this would perform? Uh, and I think the gypsy thread, I could do that, the linking rings, I could do that. Um, there's there's a certain sort of class to it, a sort of quality where it looks quite sort of quite sophisticated, I think. There are certain, you know, something brightly coloured and comedic wouldn't fit, but something sort of smart might. Uh and the nice thing about the the silhouette idea is that it is, you know, there aren't any props, it is just something which is organic, and I think it could be performed in a smart, smart way. Um I hadn't specifically thought about doing that in my act, but I I could see how it could work. Um, but yeah, usually I I think probably I'm looking for things that when I'm seeing something being performed, I could I sort of think, yeah, I could I could actually see my character doing that. Um that sort of is the starting point, and that's a combination of the the apparatus that's being used, um, the effect, and often the performer that I'm watching.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:55

Amazing. Well, that brings us to your final item then. So what is the last thing you would take with you on your island?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:04

Well, now this is interesting because, as I say, I was out of sync because I had included my pack of cards. So when we started this podcast, uh, I had thought I had already had my eight. So you're now, in fact, unwittingly, slightly putting me on the spot because I didn't have uh another item. But as it happens, fortunately, I went to the magic circle last night. And uh I have seen some really great stuff, the magic circle, recently. Um, I shouldn't sound quite as surprised as that. You know, I used to go to the magic circle the whole time when I was younger, and I absolutely loved it. I then sort of fell out of going when I was at university and then at law school. And there was a period, I don't know, many years ago, when if I did go to the magic circle, I often there weren't people there who I knew, or some of the events sort of were a bit, yeah. And I sort of fell out of it and slightly fell a bit out of love. With it, which is which is a shame. Um, it has got so so great recently. You know, I really enjoy going. And often I'll meet up with friends there deliberately, but even if I don't, you know, if I go to the magic circle, there will often be people who you know I'm delighted to see and want to talk to anyway, because a lot of there are a lot of interesting people who go there. And recently there have been some really great lectures and events there. And I went last night uh because I specifically needed to meet up with somebody, and I had no particular expectations of uh the lecture. And it was a lecture by a magician who I have to admit I had not heard of. And I don't know if I've been living under a rock or if he is not as well known in the UK as he is in um uh on the continent, but uh he gave uh such a great lecture that I actually bought his book and a trick, which and I haven't done this in so many years. So um his name is Luke Appers, and uh I was so taken by his presentation. Uh he gave a lecture, and it really uh did sort of uh echo quite a few of the topics that we've been speaking about of you know, slow, simple, clear magic, letting the magic speak for itself, uh having clear plots that are easy to understand, um uh very effective uh magic. And uh I hadn't actually started looking at this book, but a lot of if it's anything like what he did in the uh uh in the lecture, it's gonna be great. And I did actually buy uh a trick, uh, which again I say I I just never do this, uh, but I was looking for a copper-silver routine. Um, I've got an engagement coming up later on in the year, and I hadn't really been doing sort of walk around for quite a long time. And I was thinking to myself, hmm, I really probably should have a few more things that I can do in that sort of strictly close-up environment, not so much the sort of parlor, but if I am just walking around, um, and I was thinking about a copper-silver routine, and he had a routine uh using uh a uh Chinese coin and a uh a Morgan silver dollar, which I thought was really effective. And it's sort of going back to what we were saying a moment ago, you know, what does it take for me to see something and think I might put that in? And uh this really ticked all those boxes. It was very, it was lovely props. Uh, it was a very simple effect, it was the sort of thing that fitted with my persona. Uh, the way it was presented, the way that uh that Luke did it, I thought was um, you know, really, really nice. So I think my uh final item is going to be uh the one that I've just bought, and I'm gonna pack it before I get shipped off to my uh uh to my desert island, and I'm gonna enjoy playing around with uh this set of uh copper silver coins.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:08

Amazing. Well, that is high praise indeed. Um, I think lots of people are gonna be seeking that out. That's one of the things that I absolutely love about you know the magic circle and going to events is discovering people that you didn't know about before. I think that's still one of the most exciting things about our industry. If you get the chance to go to the magic circle or go to an event and to see these lectures, even if you've never heard of them before, just go. Because that that's how you can broaden your horizon and discover things that you you just didn't know of before. And I think that's exactly what you've just said there.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:45

Well, absolutely. And you know, a few years ago they had um Giancarlo Scalia, who uh at the time I had not heard of, and he also completely knocked me for six. I mean, I just thought he was brilliant, and yeah, those sorts of um moments, you know, it's it's lovely to go to a convention and look down the list and say, oh yeah, he's good, he's good, and she's good, and I'm looking forward to that, and whatever. Um, but when you've seen it before, you know, it's it's great, but you're you're kind of expecting it to be good. It's those moments when it's somebody who you've never come across for whatever reason I say. And partly uh because I I have been a little bit out of the world of magic. Maybe these are names that other people uh know far better than I do. But you know, it is it is great to have these surprises where yeah, you can turn up without any particular expectations, and it really kind of gives you um it gives you kind of hope as well. Because look, if we're honest, there is also there is a fair amount of fairly bad magic as well, which one can sort of get a bit depressed by. There's a lot of quite stale things and a lot of stuff which isn't really moving things forward. Uh, and you know, that can drag one down a bit. But when you see something like this, it really does um, you know, it really is exciting and it really makes you think there's there's a lot still to be discovered in this world.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:05

Well, I think that's a lovely segue onto the banishment. So I want you to imagine that you are gonna dig a big sandy hole, you're gonna throw something inside from our industry, never to be seen again. What are you gonna banish on your island, guy?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:20

The mutilated parasol. That is a trick which I I don't know how many people still perform it. It was performed very, very regularly when I used to go to magic conventions when I was starting in the late 80s and the 90s, particularly in magic competitions, particularly in that category of general magic, uh, the mutilated parasol. Let me summarize the trick for those who are fortunate enough never to have seen it. Uh, the trick involves a sort of an umbrella type of thing. Now, let me get this the right way around. Yes, there is an umbrella often with a brightly coloured uh cover, um sort of uh yeah, the umbrella itself, the fabric is is often brightly colored. That gets put into a sort of sheath kind of thing, uh, so that just the handle is left sticking out. Then a series of silk handkerchiefs are removed and put into an odd bag. The bag is then opened, and if I remember correctly, I think I've seen it done in two ways. Sometimes the silk handkerchiefs are no longer in the bag, and in place is the fabric of the umbrella. Sometimes I think maybe the bag changes into the top of the umbrella. Um, and you then take the umbrella out of the sheath, and when you open the umbrella, at the end of each of the spines of the umbrella is one of the silk handkerchiefs that has disappeared. That is the effect, and it kind of drives me crazy. I just think it's such nonsense, and I don't think it is remotely baffling. I don't think anybody goes away thinking, you know, how on earth could that have been done? Uh I mean, people probably don't know the exact method, but you know, in principle, it's fairly obvious that something funny was going on in that bag and in that weird sheath that the umbrella was put in. And it's fairly obvious that the silk handkerchiefs that are tied to the end of the spines of the umbrella are not the same as the ones that went into the weird bag earlier on. And it just embodies this sort of weird category of old-fashioned sort of vaudeville magic that is sort of presumably, it was presumably remotely charming at some point. Kind of uh, I guess sort of in the post-war era, there was probably a period of kind of just seeing faintly interesting things in theaters and people sort of politely clapping, oh, isn't that charming? But it just is not magical. And it's just weird. It doesn't have any sort of logic to it at all. It's just doing something for the sake of it. Nobody would sit down and go, okay, I want to come up with a really great magic trick that people are going to remember for the rest of their lives. What we are we gonna come up with? We're gonna come up with a trick with an umbrella where you put sput that and that it I mean, it just doesn't tick any of the boxes for me at all. And I just think if there was ever a time for it, for that sort of faintly charming, you know, oh right, very nice next thing, that's gone and it should be banished forever. So the mutilated parasol, uh, thank you, will never be seen again.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:53

The the thing that I think is interesting about that, and we've spoken a lot on this podcast about magicians having strange props. And you know, I I always reference back to Andy Nyman's episode where he says, you know, a magician should have strange props, they're a magician. However, in the the case of the Mutilated Parasol, I think the strange prop is only facilitating the method, and maybe that shouldn't be there. Maybe they should guy Hollingworth the situation and find a completely different avenue for the method in order to make the trick achievable.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:31

There is a certain style of magic where yes, the prop is is the interesting thing, and yes, you're doing something with that prop. Um, it's not a route that I tend to go down. You know, I I tend to like ordinary things and magic happening with ordinary things so that the attention is not on the prop itself. But I can certainly see that as uh as a as a way to go. But I think you're absolutely right. This is neither one thing nor the other. This is not a this is not, you know, I am I am a uh a wizard and I found this enchanted device that does this amazing thing, nor is it um, look, I'm just an ordinary, hey, I've got my umbrella in case it rains. You know, it's it's it's neither one thing nor the other. It is just a weird thing uh that is neither particularly interesting nor sufficiently ordinary that anyone is gonna think you're just doing a magic trick with an ordinary umbrella. Um, so yeah, don't like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:34

Okay, so mutilated parasol is gone, it's buried, all right? We don't have to worry about that again. Now, you're only allowed to take one book with you, Guy. What book would you take?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:44

Yeah, um, I don't read as many books as I probably should. And it goes back to the um, you know, what I was saying earlier about uh in some ways quite liking just to start from scratch. And I think probably I don't read, well, I definitely don't read as much as I used to. And obviously, I mean, reading does spark creativity. So I think I am probably missing out on some of that. So I haven't read very many books recently, which is partly why I was so surprised to find myself buying this book, which is a testament to how much I enjoyed the lecture. Um, but I think I probably won't take this with me, although I am in I am looking forward to reading it. Uh, but I think it's a bit rash to choose to take a book with me that I haven't yet read. Uh, so I think I probably have to go back to the start, and partly for reasons of nostalgia, um, I think I do have to take um expert card technique because it really was the starting point for me in card magic. Uh, and it did have such a huge influence on me. Um I, as I mentioned, I started I started doing magic at school, but this was I didn't really know that magic shops existed. I certainly didn't know about magic conventions or magic clubs. Uh, and you know, when you were a schoolboy in the 1980s, uh, you know, with limited, maybe a bit of weekly pocket money, you know, what where do you go and learn magic? Well, my my starting point was to go to the library. And as it happened, that uh, and I'm just literally talking about the local library, I'm not talking about a magic library, the library. And they had a small selection of magic books there. And I didn't know, you know, I mean, I just took took them out and read them. I didn't know whether they were good or bad or easy or difficult, they were just what they were. And the expert card technique was one of, and I don't know if it was necessarily the first book that I took out, but it was fairly early on. And I just sort of not necessarily work my way through it, but I I just learned a lot of the material from it, particularly the slights from it, the Charlie Miller false shuffle that I still use, the false riffle shuffle. And I think it had such an impact upon me. Uh, I mentioned before that I think a lot of what I do is probably regarded as quite difficult from a technical perspective. And I was really surprised when I did start going to magic clubs that people told me that. You know, I go to a magic club and uh say I was 16 at the time, and people would say, Why are you doing such difficult material? Because most of the people at these magic clubs couldn't do the Charlie Miller strip out shuffle. You know, they weren't they they didn't do technical stuff. And this was it came as such a surprise to me because I'd never thought this was difficult. I just thought, well, this is what magic is. In the same way as if I'd gone to a bookshop uh to a to a library and got a book about how to play tennis. If it told you, you know, you have to throw the ball up and do this in order to serve, well, that's presumably what you do. That this to me was just what you did if you did magic. And the idea that this is somehow, oh, that's really difficult, and you don't need to do that, I'd honestly never crossed my mind. So it really kind of I found that quite helpful because I didn't have that um barrier of being told that something was difficult before trying to tackle it. And objectively, I actually don't think a lot of these slights that people regard as difficult are as difficult as people think. Um, I mean, at the same time, I was being forced somewhat against my will to learn the piano, which I'm now grateful that I did have piano lessons, but at the time I really didn't enjoy it. Uh, and I've always maintained that even playing a pretty simple piece of music on the piano requires a lot more dexterity and slight, if you will, than most magic tricks, um, just in terms of the pure mechanics of moving your fingers in the right way. Um, I think compared to that, things that are regarded as particularly difficult uh aren't objectively all that difficult. And whilst I entirely agree that one should do what I often don't do, namely, one should try and find the simplest method. Uh, one should try and eliminate slides. I agree with that in principle. Nevertheless, if you can't do certain slights, it does limit the ways, the tricks that you can do and the ways that you can go about doing them. Having the ability to do a wide range of things, including some difficult things, does I think give you more options of ways to do magic and more tricks that you can perform. And I think that some people do get into the habit from quite an early age of thinking, well, I can just buy a trick from a magic shop and I don't really need it, it's not not difficult. If that's your mindset, then if you're confronted with, well, in order to do this trick, you really have to practice hard, that sort of is a bit of a barrier. Well, why would I bother to do that? And having come at it from completely opposite way of just assuming that like learning to play the piano or learning to play tennis, you know, you do actually need to put some time in to have the to get the techniques worked out. If you kind of got that under your belt, I think that gives you quite a head start. So for me, uh expert card technique was a really um kind of important book that shaped how I went about doing magic going forward. I haven't read it for many years, and I'm sure there are loads of things in it that I have forgotten. Uh, so I think probably I will enjoy the opportunity to revisit it, and um it will be nostalgic as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:49

Yeah, I think that's a great choice. And uh, so many people on the podcast have spoken about the nostalgia of the the first book that they read. And I also think it's really interesting something that you said there. You said you haven't read it in a while, and there's likely stuff that you've forgotten about. I think that's that's the sign of a good book, is that you'll always go back to it and learn something new. And I think that's yeah, that's that's a lovely thought. Now it does bring us to your final item. So you've got one thing that you can take with you that's not inherently used for magic, but you would use for magic. What would be your non-magic item?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:26

Well, I think this is quite uh quite easy for me. Um, I I I sort of knew instantly the answer to that is I'm gonna take a jacket. I I just find that a jacket is something that I really can't envisage being without when I'm performing for so many reasons. I mean, partly it does sort of fit my persona. So normally I am relatively smart, smartly dressed when I'm performing. Um, but partly I just think it is so useful from uh I mean, I I often don't have a case or you know, anything, a box with tricks in it, because pockets are built in. So it's a place to keep tricks, it's a case, it's a place for switching things, you know. If I want to do one trick and go into another, putting things in pockets. Um, there are lots of, I mean, people talk about magicians using their sleeves and making things vanish. I mean, you can do do that, but there are so many other things magically that you can do with your jacket. Um, I mentioned in my cups and balls routine um a vanish that Pat Page, um, I learned from Pat Page about how to vanish a ball. That uses your jacket. I then mentioned the version that I use, this technique I call flapping, which again uses the jacket. It's sort of it's an it's a normal thing for well, for a magician who performs in my style to have, and yet it has so many options built into it. The other thing which I use it for the whole time, is it's a very convenient place to display something. I don't have you know a stand that I bring on stage, but I use my top pocket the whole time. And a little tip that I will give to anyone who's interested, um, I always, in a in a jacket, I will put um I will sew in a strip of velcro uh along the top. Or this one is actually, I've just realized this has got a little press stud in it. That that works equally well. Um, but I think that way I can still use my top pocket if you want to put a handkerchief in it, just for whatever, or if you want to put some cards or something, you can still use it. But by then sealing the the press stud or the velcro, um it then prevents things from falling down into it. So if I have a card selected and signed, I can put it into my top pocket, knowing that it'll just stay there on display and it won't fall in out of sight. Uh and I find that really helpful in quite a lot of routines. Um, I've recently started doing a version of wildcard. It doesn't use a table, it happens in people's hands. And every time a card changes, um, rather than putting it on the table, I just pop it in my top pocket. So I just think it is such a useful utility item uh that's say you can display things, you can store things, you can switch things, you can use it for methods. Uh I can't really envisage being without it. I imagine having a jacket might be quite useful on a desert island if it gets cold. And when I am rescued, I'll want to make a good impression and be well dressed for my rescuer. So having a jacket seems to tick all the boxes.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:37

A great choice, I think, on your island. Now, when it comes to a jacket, you did mention a method. Are there any other things that you would add to a jacket?

SPEAKER_02 1:48:46

Probably not. I have played in the past with a toppit. Uh, I don't use one uh now. Uh tails I use for my stage act. I do have some alterations in my tails, uh, but I'm not thinking of my stage act uh for this. When I uh use my jacket for other things, I do for my cups and balls routine. I do have uh in my current routine a little bit of smoke for a particular reason, which does involve something in my jacket, but I'm not no, I don't think I'm fussed about that for the desert island. Uh and yeah, one of the uh both of the methods I mentioned, the Pat Page thing and the the um the flapping method, use ordinary jackets. Uh so I'm not gonna make any alterations from that. Uh so no, I think I'll leave it as it is. Uh I used to, I did go through a phase where when I started as a as a barrister, I thought, right, I think probably as a barrister I ought to have a suit made for me. And I did have a couple of suits made. And to be honest, I'm maybe I just was going to the wrong places. I never really found it was it justified the expense. So I tend now. Not even to have jackets made, so there aren't you know suits made. I just buy I often buy vintage ones, secondhand ones, because I think you can get some really nice things, and I've got a tailor down the road that will just sort of alter things and you know make them fit better. Um, but I don't normally have alterations made. And actually, I say I quite like being creative and doing things. If I do need to do things, I'll normally do it myself. I quite like sort of sewing in my strip of velcro in my top pocket, kind of that's that's my little thing I'll do. So no, I'll just have an ordinary jacket. Thank you very much. Maybe with a strip of velcro.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:32

Okay, the velcro can go with you as well. But that's a great way to uh round out your list. So we had your welcome package, we had the Reformation. Then we had cups and balls, we had half crowns and shell, we had Professor's Nightmare, billiard balls, we had the Lincoln Rings, the Gypsy Fred, we had Silhouette with an honorary phone and power bank for you. Uh, we've got the copper silver that you discovered last night at the Magic Circle. Your banishment is the mutilated parasol. Your book is expert card technique, and your item is an unaltered jacket. Thank you very much. I think that is a great list.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:10

Well, thank you very much. It's been very informative. It's been quite a good exercise for me to think through this and to sort of open my mind to other things and given me some ideas, including on this podcast. Thank you for your suggestions. I will take those on board. And who knows, next time you see me, I might be doing not only a linking rings, but also a gypsy thread in my stage act. So thank you for your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:33

Well, I'm already looking forward to it. But if people want to find out more about you, about obviously the book launch, which I know everyone's super excited about. Um, I also think it's very exciting that you're able to get a reprint of your first book as well, because uh they're hard to come by. My copy is a secondhand copy, and it was only just a second ago I realized uh you have signed this copy to uh to Matt, who I am not, but thank you for that. That's great. Um so it's gonna be great for you guys to get a copy of that book. Please do get a copy of that book. It is absolutely fantastic. So if people want to find out more about you, about the the lecture tour, about where they can get the books or when they can get it, all of that good stuff, where do they go to, Guy?

SPEAKER_02 1:52:17

Well, my online presence is hopelessly out of date. I'm in the moment in the process of having my website updated. So uh maybe uh guy-hollingworth.com will at some point in the future be more useful than it currently is. But at the moment it's not much use at all. Uh, I'm also very behind on social media, so I am sort of kicking and screaming uh into the 21st century, whatever, uh posting a few things, but uh, and there will be a few bits of information on there. But the best way to do it is the people who are organized are my publishers. And this is a co-publication. The uh new book and the reprint are both co-publications. Um, Mike Cavemey, who has been a good friend for many years and was uh, you know, he was the one who was kind enough to publish my first book when I was, you know, very, very new, and it did so much better than I could have hoped. Um, I couldn't imagine him not being involved in uh my new book. Um, but equally, Mike's books are typically these sort of beautiful and highly researched historical books, and uh I don't know how many of his customers are necessarily that interested in my new book. And equally, I'm not sure how many people I haven't been doing much recently. I don't know how many people generally sort of know about me and my new book. So Vanishing Inc are the other co-publishers, and they have been fantastic and already that they've really arranged this tour and are doing lots of launch events. Uh, so that's a very long answer to your question. Uh, my publishers know the detail much more than I do, and I would suggest you look at uh Vanishing Inc's uh website, which has got the details of what they have termed the drawing room grand tour, which sounds very good. I'm very excited about that. That's got all the details of the uh upcoming uh dates, uh, and it also will have the details of the book and when that is released and when the first book is re-released, they will be available both from Vanishing Inc. and from Mike Caveney's magic words.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:21

Amazing. And a little bit earlier on, you did mention about your show as well. Is there a way that people can find out where you are going to be performing?

SPEAKER_02 1:54:30

Well, ideally, that will be part of my uh updated website. At the moment, it's a bit hit and miss. So probably the short answer is no. At the moment, there is no single resource that will tell you that. Um, hopefully, things might be mentioned uh on things like Magic Week. Uh so I'm got some shows in uh Cheltenham early next year, which uh hopefully will be promoted, uh and that will be my new show, um, which I'm sure will be covered. But hopefully by then I might have a respectable website uh which will uh which will mention that. So maybe keep an eye on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:03

Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Guy. I know we've taken an awful lot of your time, but uh I'm sure that a lot of people are gonna very much look forward to listening to this.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:13

Well, thank you very much. It's been great fun to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:15

And of course, thank you all for listening. Please do go check out Guy's book tour. Uh, go find out where he is gonna be. Uh, I'm definitely going to the Magic Circle one to pick up a uh early copy of this book because I'm very excited to delve into it, especially after this episode of the podcast and talking to Guy. So please do go check that out. Get behind the book launch. If you don't have his first book, just get it. Don't even think about it. There's a reason that it is held in such high esteem, so do go check that out. And of course, we're gonna be back next week with another episode of this. So for now, have a great week. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:58

The news is out. The 1914 has found a new home. We are proud to announce that Alakazam Magic are now the proud custodians of the 1914. What does this mean for you? Simply put, everything you love stays exactly where it belongs. The aesthetic, the quality, the philosophy. The website remains unchanged. Your instructional content is safe. The classics that defined the 1914 will be restocked and made available once again. And with our industry-leading infrastructure and customer service behind the scenes, the future is stronger than ever. But this isn't just about preservation. Work has already begun on a series of new 1914 releases. Projects that have been quietly evolving for years and are finally ready to see the light of day. This is the next chapter. Built on respect for the past, driven by belief in the future. Thank you for your continued support. Thank you for coming along with us on this journey. We are the new 1914.